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    Need help reading this music.

    preceeding note. How is that played? I can't break after the grace note, so what's that slur for? Is that a typo, with the slur in the wrong place?




    3) Don't have a picture ... but what is a whole note with a tiny vertical line on each side of it ... looks sort of like a Tie Fighter from Star Wars.




    Thank you greatly, anyone who cares to help me out here.

    -N
    Last edited by Neumie; 01-22-2014, 09:39 PM.

    #2
    Let me help.

    In picture one, the plus indicates a trill. It's not really what we see these days, but it's another way to indicate it. The numbers above indicate the fingering recommended for the trill. While not relevant here, in organ music a plus sign can also indicate to thumb down, that is to play the note with the thumb on a hand that is playing on a manual above it, so as to play on two manuals with one hand.

    The semibreve with lines on either side is called a breve or a double whole note. Basically it lasts for eight beats instead of four. It can be notated sometimes with a symbol that looks like a square semibreve.

    As for the Bach,the grace note does look a bit unusual, I would be inclined to play the C as a dotted semiquaver and the grace note as a demisemiquaver which the C would lean on right at the end of its duration, which does lead me to wonder whether the C is in essence a long grace note leading into the B, but as that would be difficult to indicate they thought it better to notate it as in picture two.

    I could be wrong on the Bach, but I'm confident on the Flor Peeters.

    Hope that helps.

    Comment


      #3
      Thank you, Sathrandur. You definitely helped me with the Peeters "plus" and learning about the semibreve.

      That grace note is still in question. I don't quite follow you ... but you know, I have seen more than a couple of typos in this method book. I wouldn't doubt if that grace-slur is simply a typo. I think that grace note was intended to slur to the following note, just like in measure one.

      But you really helped me out with that plus mark. I don't know how many people would know the answer to that question. Thanks again.

      Comment


        #4
        responding to Peeters and JSB excerpts

        preceeding note. How is that played? I can't break after the grace note, so what's that slur for? Is that a typo, with the slur in the wrong place?




        3) Don't have a picture ... but what is a whole note with a tiny vertical line on each side of it ... looks sort of like a Tie Fighter from Star Wars.




        Thank you greatly, anyone who cares to help me out here.

        -N[/QUOTE]

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Neumie View Post
          I'm having trouble reading some of the music notation in my Flor Peeters Ars Organi organ method books. He doesn't explain these items in the books - presumably because most organ books assume an advanced piano ability already, which I don't have.

          Can anyone help me understand these three unusual notations?

          1) This piece has trills, like on beat one here, but what are these odd (I assume) fingering numbers and the plus sign (which I've never seen before) on beat three? There is no trill called for there, so what are those numbers and the plus sign about?
          Neumie,

          Is the piece French? I've only seen the plus sign (+) in one context for organ music, and that is in the French Baroque music. A few decades ago, I twice had the privilege of attending Ray Ferguson's workshops on the ornamentation of French Classical music (aka French Baroque). Of course my brain leaks, but I seem to remember that such an ornament was more like a mordent of some sort than a trill. The leading tone of the mordent, the direction, and the resolution all depend on the approaching phrase and following phrase. It is in the music of Dandrieu and Balbastre.

          When I get home later tonight, I'll check in those books for their performance notes. I also have Mr. Ferguson's notes on the subject hidden away somewhere--now, just where did I put it?

          Michael
          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
          • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

          Comment


            #6
            Thank you, guys. Regarding the question of the plus sign, it seems I did overlook Peeters clearly stating the definition of the "+" in the Ars Organi book. (These three books are thick with discussion on the organ, not at all like Peeters petite "Little Organ Book". Ars Organi is a three volume method, almost 400 pages, with lots of discussion.)

            Anyway, he lists a number of symbols for trills - the familiar jagged line with two, three, four, etc jags, the letter T, the initials tr, and several others. (By the way, Peeters says that two, three, four, etc jags all mean the exact same thing. My teacher vigorously disputes that. So, yet another controversy.)

            Later Peeters adds something like, "much less commonly used is "+", which is equivalent to a trill symbol".

            I don't know how I missed that the first time through. I think my brain shut down when he said, "much less common" ... as I immediately got to thinking "well, that means I'll never see it".

            To which, of course, he puts it in the first lesson on trills.

            -N

            Comment


              #7
              For the fingering above the +, 2-1 would refer to the fingering of the trill proper, while 3-2 would be the fingering for the termination leading to the following E.

              preceeding note. How is that played? I can't break after the grace note, so what's that slur for? Is that a typo, with the slur in the wrong place?
              For the second small note, I'd interpret that as playing C-B-A-B all as sixteenths. The small note may have been used to more clearly indicate a note that lies outside of the predominant harmony.

              Comment


                #8
                Regarding the fingering of the trill. If you start with a mordent on the "A" - a quick 3-2-3 / A G A, it follows that your second finger is ready to play the G, which is the starting note for the trill based on the F. The suggestion in the music is to play the trill as G F G F; the use of the fingers 2-1-3-2 (the first G F are played with 2 and 1; the second G F are played with 3 and 2) allows you to adjust your hand position ever so slightly down the keyboard to create a perfect legato leading, as quantum said, to the following E. This practice is not uncommon - remember that the Peeters is an educational document; the inclusion of fingerings like this is to help us learn the various tools we need to play well.

                Regarding the BWV 770. I just checked my Barenreiter edition, published in 1983. In it, the small gracenote "B" is tied to the following A, not to the preceding "C". "Ach, was soll ich Suender machen" is a set of 10 variations on a chorale melody. The measures in question are the last two measures of the second variation. I would consider that there is a typo in the Peeters, which was published in the early 1950's from what I can tell.
                Last edited by regeron; 01-25-2014, 07:24 AM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Thank you, guys! Geez, I hope you're all here for the duration of my organ studies. I suspect I'm going to have plenty of questions as I go along and you're answers just cut through all the fog for me.

                  Regeron, thanks for adding your two cents about the grace note being a typo. Now I know I'm not just looking for an easy way out. It does seem like a typesetting error.

                  Much appreciated - all of ya'll.

                  -N

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by myorgan View Post
                    I've only seen the plus sign (+) in one context for organ music, and that is in the French Baroque music. A few decades ago, I twice had the privilege of attending Ray Ferguson's workshops on the ornamentation of French Classical music (aka French Baroque).
                    Neumie,

                    One statement to start: According to Dr. Fergusson, ornamentation of French Classical (aka Baroque) music was highly improvisational and often interpreted differently depending on the performer. (playing two 8th notes as long+short) was understood rather than notated in some music, however, some in other pieces it is written as a dotted eighth+sixteenth to indicate the same method of playing.

                    I found my Claude Balbastre (1727-1799) and Louis Claude Daquin (1692-1772) books and scanned a couple of passages:
                    Click image for larger version

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                    In the above photo from Balbastre (Noel Suisse), I believe the red circles indicate 2 different uses for the plus (+) sign for ornamentation. The first indicates a mordent, while the second would indicate a measured trill.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    In the above photo from Daquin (Noel Suisse), the plus signs on either side of the red #1 would indicate mordents, and are followed by a trill (#2). #3 could either be a mordent or turn in the context given. I believe #4 should have had a plus over the first note of the measure, and I'd perform it that way because #4 & 5 appear to be similar to #1 & 2.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    In the above photo from the same Daquin piece, considering the tempo of the piece, #1 would be a mordent (there would be no time for a trill), while #2 would be played as a measured trill.

                    I realize this may be a bit off topic for this thread, but wanted to include the musical examples so there is no question there is more than one interpretation for a plus(+) symbol over a note, given the context of the music.

                    Bottom line, Neumie, ornamentation is highly subjective depending on the country, epoch, composer, performer, and several other variables. I know what it's like to take lessons and want to have all the answers right away, but trust your teacher to provide you with the information as you are ready. Of course, it doesn't hurt to push your teacher a bit either!

                    Michael
                    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

                    Comment

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