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I think it would be a nice idea to have written down all in one place everything an organist should know concerning registration for the different national schools and periods, without having to refer continuously to all the treatises dealing with them, especially when you need the information quickly and don't necessarily have the information in your personal library.
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Start writing then.
You'll need a lot of paper.
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I think that is one of the reasons we haveonline forums. The only thing is... knowledgeable people need to contribute and there will always be the opinions of less-informed people to sort through. Still, it is a worthwhile way to share information, have a lively debate,and perhaps even make some friends. [:)]</P>
I will start by asking Frank a few questions about French romantic/symphonic music. I have my own ideas, but would like to hear other opinions:</P>
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<LI>When the score calls forff do you include string stops such as Gambes? What about 4' flute stops? In other words, if you have these stops drawn as part of the fonds, would you then withdraw them as the music gets louder?</LI>
<LI>I know that jeux d'anches implies the use of some upperwork in addition to reeds - would you use mutations, cornets,mixtures, orall of these?</LI>
<LI>When an Hautbois, Trompette, or Cromorne solo is indicated would you always draw a Bourdon with it, or does it depend on the composer?</LI>[/list]
Thanks in advance.</P>Comment
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<LI>When an Hautbois, Trompette, or Cromorne solo is indicated would you always draw a Bourdon with it, or does it depend on the composer?</LI>
I have never understood what is wrong with the reed alone and I have never bothered to ask. If the reed is stable and the organ is in tune (as in a climate-controlled American church, but perhaps not as in a French cathedral), what is wrong with the sound of the solo reed alone?</P>
Thank you!</P>Comment
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My understanding is that for romantic music you would draw the Bourdon which gives a bit more body and roundness to the solo.</P>
If the reed is beautiful by itself there is probably nothing wrong with using it alone - but I know that many French scores specify other stops along with the solo reed.</P>Comment
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[quote user="soubasse32"]
I will start by asking Frank a few questions about French romantic/symphonic music. I have my own ideas, but would like to hear other opinions:</p>
<ul>[*]When the score calls forff do you include string stops such as Gambes? What about 4' flute stops? In other words, if you have these stops drawn as part of the fonds, would you then withdraw them as the music gets louder?[*]I know that jeux d'anches implies the use of some upperwork in addition to reeds - would you use mutations, cornets,mixtures, orall of these?[*]When an Hautbois, Trompette, or Cromorne solo is indicated would you always draw a Bourdon with it, or does it depend on the composer?[/list]
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Okay, you really asked Frank, so I apologize for butting in...
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When the score calls for ff, none of the fonds are withdrawn as layers are added to the sound. It was traditionally done by adding whatever's pre-drawn on Anches windchests one division at a time and opening the Recit box. No reaching with the hands to turn off a Gambe or 4' flute if it was part of the base fonds registration.</p>
During most of Franck's lifetime Anches 8 or Anches 8 4 would not include mixtures or Cornets, but Anches without pitch designation would mean everything available on the Anches windchest for the division so marked. So a Franck fff might not include anything above 4' pitch. Later composers seem to have included upperwork in the buildup more often.</p>
Use of the Bourdon 8 with any solo reed goes back at least to 17th century in France. In the Romantic period, several fonds could be drawn with a reed for a solo line or for several parts, but you wouldn't necessarily say it was still a "solo reed" -- more like adding a reed to the chosen fonds.
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These somewhat mechanical "practices" have to be modified for each organ, obviously.</p>
Great topic!</p>
References: Wallace Goodrich, The Organ in France
Rollin Smith, Towards an Authentic Interpretation of the Organ Works of Cesar Franck</p>
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Thanks for responding! [:)]It is a very interesting topic.</P>
I mentioned the Gambes and 4' flutes, only because some organists are so insistent that they not be used in louder combinations - a holdover from the neo-baroque school of thought perhaps? I know that C-C's organs can handle all stops out, wind-wise; and his organs are voiced for all stops to blend, so it should work well either way.</P>
</P>During most of Franck's lifetime Anches 8 or Anches 8 4 would not include mixtures or Cornets, but Anches without pitch designation would mean everything available on the Anches windchest for the division so marked. So a Franck fff might not include anything above 4' pitch.
I see what you are saying re: anches 8, anches 8 4 vs. the more genericterm"anches". </P>
But concerning Franck's not using anything above 4' pitch for fortissimo - I'm a bit dubious about that. All of C-C's organs contained upperwork on the anches windchest - anything from a lone2' Octavin, to mutations, mixtures, and cornets in the larger divisions. It is reasonable to assume that Franck would have used mixtures and/or cornets as part of a fortissimo passage as these stops are so typical in French registrations, whether in classic or romantic music. </P>
Classic Plein jeu = foundations+mixtures; ClassicGrand jeu = 4' Prestant, Cornets, mutations, reeds. The romantic era saw the combining of reeds and mixtures (and foundations, cornets, mutations) for the first time - basically because C-C's winding system allowed it.</P>
My questions specifically was whether one would always combine cornets and mixtures, or if it was more typical to take a "mix & match" approach (for French romantic music, not necessarily just Franck). [*-)]</P>
Sorry if this post is a bit unclear or brusque - I'm in a dreadful hurry at the moment. I alsolost this whole post and had to retype it (computer glitch - always when I'm in a hurry...). [:(]</P>Comment
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[quote user="soubasse32"]</p>
</p>During most of Franck's lifetime Anches 8 or Anches 8 4 would not include mixtures or Cornets, but Anches without pitch designation would mean everything available on the Anches windchest for the division so marked. So a Franck fff might not include anything above 4' pitch.
I see what you are saying re: anches 8, anches 8 4 vs. the more genericterm"anches". </p>
But concerning Franck's not using anything above 4' pitch for fortissimo - I'm a bit dubious about that. All of C-C's organs contained upperwork on the anches windchest - anything from a lone2' Octavin, to mutations, mixtures, and cornets in the larger divisions. It is reasonable to assume that Franck would have used mixtures and/or cornets as part of a fortissimo passage as these stops are so typical in French registrations, whether in classic or romantic music.
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All good points. I misworded my comment that Franck ff might not include upperwork. It was meant in the context of whether he gave pitches for Anches before the ff. If he just wrote "Anches" alone, all the upperwork should be included to taste. Piece Heroique says prepare Anches, so upperwork is included in the ff. The A minor Chorale's opening is ff but only includes 8' anches on the manuals, so upperwork isn't needed at the beginning, but the buildup later asks for Anches without pitch designations so the upperwork is welcome. I didn't mean to claim one should never use upperwork on Franck.
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Maestro SB32,</p>
Thats right - blame it on the computer will ya < ; - D HAHAHAHAHA </p>
I have no qualms about combining mixtures and cornets in French romantic music. In Kevin Bicknell's homily on Cavaille-Coll's Four *Fonds* I find more than ample reason to include strings. But these days I'll omit drawing the single rank mutations. When I draw mixtures and cornets, my ear does not detect any differences when adding the single rank mutations.</p>
Cavaillé-Coll's four fonds</p>
Cheers,</p>
K-Phone </p>
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For ff, yes, you include Gambes and 4' flute stops as a general principle, and you keep them drawn. On a Cavaillé-Coll instrument every stop is a gem and all the foundation stops sound beautifully together. When the music gets louder, you depress the ventil lever, Appel Anches, which brings on the reeds and mixtures you had already drawn before starting to play. However, it is important to listen to the ensemble and if some stops take too much wind, you should withdraw them. This is a question of good musicianship.
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Concerning jeux d'anches, that generally implies all the stops on the Ventil division including mutatiuons, cornets and mixtures, for example, not only Bombarde 16', Trompette 8', Clairon 4', but also Octave 4', Quint 2 2/3', Plein Jeu harmonique VII, as the Ventil division is on the Great manual at Sainte-Clotilde. All those who studied with Franck say this, and this is valid for Widor and Vierne. However, there are certain exceptions that have to be studied in their context. Composers like Jean Langlais, Olivier Messiaen and Maurice Duruflé who are more recent specify Reeds and Mixtures when they want that. </p>
As for Hautbois, Trompette, Cromorne solo, that depends on the composer as to whether or not you draw a Bourdon with it.
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