You Need 2 Manuals to play Bach's "Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier" (BWV 731)

[Paul789]

Silly me! I thought I could get away with just using my Nord Stage 2, for the two handed parts of this
Bach piece. But lo and behold! When you get to the second part, the two parts clash with each other
on one manual.

So if I want to play Bach's BWV 731 "properly", using modern digital keyboards, I will not only have to buy the
Nord "Pedal Keys 27" for the pedal part, but I will also have to use two keyboards!

Please correct me if I am wrong! :-P:o

[tbeck]

There are plenty of works in the Orgelbuechlein that you can play on one manual only if you don't want to expand your setup.

[andijah]

Well, yes, theoretically you do need two manuals, and it's actually written "a 2 Clav. e pedale" (Clav. stands for Clavier and means keyboard/manual).
But if your (home) organ has a range up to g''' (G6 in American pitch notation), you could play the upper part one octave higher.

I haven't played this piece for a long time, but looking at the music, I think it's possible to play it on one manual, too. Yes, the hands will get really close to each other, but you don't actually have to cross hands.

However, there are many, many Bach pieces that sound nice and work well on a one-manual-organ, so you don't necessarily have to buy a second keyboard - of course this will give you a lot more possibilities.

And if you have to buy a pedalboard, 27 notes is the minimum. I love playing historical instruments and have played on 25 oder even 22 note pedalboards, but this limits the playable repertoire. Of course, if you know what you're doing, you can play some notes one octave higher or lower, but... it's not easy when you're a beginner.

[andijah]

Oh, and by the way, there's an arrangement for piano or clavichord on IMSLP. With this, you can play the piece on one manual without pedals, if you want.

[Paul789]

Oh, and by the way, there's an arrangement for piano or clavichord on IMSLP. With this, you can play the piece on one manual without pedals, if you want.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll try the upper part an octave higher, and see what I think.

I went to IMSLP, and found the original organ arrangement, but I couldn't find the solo piano
arrangement?? Are you allowed to post it here?

[andijah]

When you go to this page: https://imslp.org/wiki/Liebster_Jesu...n_Sebastian%29
you will first see the recordings, and there you have different index buttons (commercial, midi...).
Same for the sheet music, there's an index button saying "arrangements/transcriptions". When you click on this and scroll down, you will find the piano version:
https://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/u...V_731_2H_!.pdf

[myorgan]

WOW! Some of the intervals of that piece for the left hand on the organ look gruelling! I could never play a 10th, so I guess I'll stick to the organ version. Are you sure the "piano" version actually isn't mis-labeled so? With the stems of the lower notes turned down, it makes me wonder if the IMSLP piano version isn't actually a 2-stave version of the organ piece.

Michael

[andijah]

I didn't work it through before posting the link. ;-)

[Paul789]

When you go to this page: https://imslp.org/wiki/Liebster_Jesu...n_Sebastian%29
you will first see the recordings, and there you have different index buttons (commercial, midi...).
Same for the sheet music, there's an index button saying "arrangements/transcriptions". When you click on this and scroll down, you will find the piano version:
https://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/u...V_731_2H_!.pdf

Wow, thank you! Very interesting arrangement indeed.

Back to the organ version: I tried this piece, with the high part an octave higher, and it sounds reasonably good. But there's nothing like
the original written parts, where the two voices intersect, and you hear the subsequent dissonance of 1/2 step intervals.

So if I go the digital route (I'm considering an old Hammond organ too!) for my home organ, I will likely try to find
a suitable two-tier keyboard rack, as I already have plenty of keyboards to choose from.

Will keep you all updated! Thanks!

[andijah]

So, following the question of myorgan regarding the piano version, I sat down this morning to play it. I don't have extra large hands and found that I can play this arrangement in a satisfying way using arpeggios and the sustain pedal. I know that purists don't like Bach being played with the sustain pedal at all, but since the piece wasn't intended for piano in the first place, I can live with it. Besides, Bach might have used all the possibilities of a modern piano if he had had one available.
But that's a question for a piano forum. O:-)

[Peterboroughdiapason]

This piece is pretty obviously written for two manuals, though there's no autograph score. However it is quite possible to perform it on one, without transposing the tune or using a piano version. Basically there are only 4 (I think) places where there is a problem. In each of these you can just repeat the note as necessary but then hold it.

It is quite common in Baroque keyboard music that the parts can run into each other and most organists would just repeat the notes without thinking about it. E.G the last bar on the first of the Orgelbuchlein preludes (BWV 599) - just the first piece I looked at. (Doesn't involve the melody, of course).

The one place where that doesn't really work is bar 8: there I would keep the notes of the tune on top of the texture and where the tune has a D# I would just play a single tenor G in the LH. (Or just play it as written.)

If you use this copy (though I don't like it) you might find it easier to manage:
https://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/u...esu_BWV731.pdf

It may not be the way Bach intended it, and the decorated RH tune really wants a solo stop, but I think it will be a perfectly satisfactory performance of one of my favourite pieces of music. Use a simple. clear registration: on a pipe organ I would use a single 8ft Principal or bright flute stop or possibly 8 and 4ft flutes.

Certainly better to play it like this than not at all!

[Peterboroughdiapason]

I've had a go at playing this on one manual on my home (Allen) organ. Here it is.

[Paul789]

Thanks for the recording, Peter, I like it. May I be so bold, as to suggest adding some long-tail reverb? :)

And I noticed you kind of added a trill near the beginning of the 3rd measure, where the 32nd notes are. It sounds good, although
that's not written in my copy of the piece. Also, I would treat the 64th notes at the end of the 4th measure, as simply a fast
trill, but that's just my taste.

Thanks for showcasing what I consider to be a great piece of music! :)

[regeron]

I just pulled out my copy and sat down at the piano. It's not that hard to play on piano.

10ths in LH, second last measure - move the bass up an octave and it's a breeze, or do the pianistic - low note as a grace note.

Where the LH comes above the RH in m. 13, play bass note as a grace note, and all other notes in the correct hand. It's easy to still bring out the RH part. Crossing parts is not a sin. It's not unusual.

Nice to discover that this sounds so good on the piano! ... and it doesn't take much practice to accomplish this!

[Peterboroughdiapason]

As this was posted on an organ forum I assumed the OP wanted to play it as an organ piece!

I don't think I could make this effective on the piano but, admittedly, I'm a terrible pianist. The texture seems too organic to me: the long-held notes and the expectation of 16ft pedal. I'd be interested in hearing a successful piano performance: I'd have thought it would have to be more of a piano transcription to make it effective. I suppose there might be one on Youtube.

[regeron]

I must admit, that to play it on my piano at home, I did have to repeat some of the long-held notes, or the harmonies (including the juicy dissonances) weren't heard that clearly. And I played some pedal notes up an octave.

I guess my point was to see if I could play both manual parts (and the pedal part) on one keyboard and not have things "clash" and I think I was successful.

[andijah]

I tried the piano version (I think I already mentioned it) and found it surprisingly nice, but of course the piece "belongs" to the organ.

Made a "quick and dirty" (*) short version on Friday (shorter than 2mins20secs so that I can upload it to my twitter account), using a very basic registration. Flute 8' for the solo, Gedackt 8' on the second manual, Gedacktbass 8' and Subbass 16' in the pedals.
You need headphones to hear the 16'.
(*) meaning I didn't have any proper recording equipment, only a standard smartphone, and I didn't practice the piece for hours and hours before the recording. Just a snapshot, if you will.

https://twitter.com/andijah/status/1307578321522364416

The organ was built in 1911.