The subject of the fundamental difference between "Baroque" and "Romantic" organ came up at music lesson today. We were unable to come up with a clear definition other than the period in which the piece was composed. The music out of a collection by E. Power Biggs seems to have a somewhat different sound, possibly a modal sound. </p>
Does anyone here have a clearer view of the fundamentals that define the two classes of organ music?
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Re: "Baroque" & "Romantic"
<U>one of numerous differences may be the nature of the music in terms of its structure: to wit</U></P>
baroque seems to favor the horizintal writings wherein voices move rather independently as opposed to say vertical writings where sumptuous chordes move more together</P>
there are many more characteristics including strict form such as fugue and other structured style of composition</P>
id say the era of the baroque music had ornamentation </P>
the romantic era produced music that seems to be more after the heart and not as much the mind</P>
Re: "Baroque" & "Romantic"
In addition to describingmusical styles, the romantic/baroque terms are also closely associated withdevelopments in organbuilding.</P>
Here are some very broad generalities for Baroque music:</P>
<UL>
<LI>polyphonic</LI>
<LI>thinner textures (written music)</LI>
<LI>thinner,transparenttextures (registration-wise); skip registration is common (8' + 2', 'skipping' the 2 2/3')</LI>
<LI>no celestes</LI>
<LI>no orchestral stops (English Horns, French Horns, etc.)</LI>
<LI>no loud reeds, such as chamades or Tubas</LI>
<LI>no swellbox</LI>
<LI>emphasis on "vertical" sound (plenum, mixtures)</LI>
<LI>sounds good ona well-built tracker organ, perhaps with a bit of articulation in the voicing</LI>[/list]
Theopposite would betrue for Romantic music (though there are exceptions in both cases).</P>
Romantic music is moreinterested with foundational tone and massed reed tone, plus crescendo/diminuendo effects and an immensefull-organ sound. Romantic music can also be softer than baroque music, with whisper-quiet stops behind closed expression shades. Romantic music begins to take advantage of higher wind pressures and stops located far away from the console. More registrational aids at the console can be helpful for romantic music: swell shoes, pistons, crescendo pedal, etc.</P>
Re: "Baroque" & "Romantic"
Very hard question.
Baroque : anything from the invention of the organ to the early 1800's?
Romantic....1800's to about the 1930's
That's a bit too short through the corners I'm afraid. There is a very distinct rennaiscance period before baroque and a short classical one between baroque and romantic.
Problem doing it as a time separation is that the icon of baroque Bach is more situated in the classical period. He came too late for baroque. Some others like Rinck stand clearly between both periods. And then there are clearly romantic composers that wrote a few very baroque pieces (Tsaikovsky).
As a sound idiom in organs, the stoplist of most organs will tell you what music will sound best on it. Baroque oriented organs will have a complete plemum (16' 8' 4' 2' 2'2/3 mixt) and a similar but smaller range of flutes with some reeds added (both "general" ones and solo ones). A romantic organ on the contrary will have a wide range of 8' stops, often a single 4' very seldom a 2'2/3 or mixtures. As voicing goes, baroque organs will have a rather individual sound of pipes while the romantic ones will have less pronounced individual character. The use of swell boxes and crescendo is also pure romantic territory. So baroque organs build their sound vertically adding overtones while romatic ones will build their sound in the massed 8' range.
Baroque music is more written follows more thematic lines. There is a melody/theme that can be very well traced through the voices. Romantic music tries to convey a mood. But this is a bit too general as some romantic music is also very thematic structured but then it often follows baroque lines and only the style of execution makes the largest difference. Some thing are identical like sonatas. Another point is the use of rethoric in baroque free music. But things like fugues will use counterpoint in both styles.
SB32: I think you will find rather a lot of chamades in spanish and italien baroque. The french romantic organs of the periond didn't have those, only recently is the chamade back in fashion.
Re: "Baroque" & "Romantic"
Much easier to define in terms of time; much harder to put into words that will result in a short, concise definition.</P>
Personally, I look at it this way: I can listen toand appreciate (for example) Virgil Fox for a much longer period of time than I can E.Power Biggs.</P>
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Re: "Baroque" & "Romantic"
Thank you all for your definitions. It seems quite difficult to draw a clear distinction except for time period.</p>
davet753 talks about E. Power Biggs and Virgil Fox. When I started to collect organ music, Biggs was preferred. As my musical sensitivity increased, the strict rhythm and somewhat dry playing style caused me to start looking elsewhere. The discovery that Virgil Fox could play the same piece and make it exciting told me that the art of organ playing includes more than just a strict interpretation of the written notes.
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Re: "Baroque" & "Romantic"
Romantic music tends to be quite programatic - I've been reading a book by Harold C. Schonberg, and he describes how Chopin's contemporaries read things into his music. I quote from his book "The Great Pianists", where he himself quotes a contemporary of Chopin, who is writing about Chopin's E Major Prelude:</p>
"Here Chopin has the conviction that he has lost his power of expression. With the determination to discover whether his brain can still originate ideas, he strikes his head with a hammer (here the sixteenths and thirty-seconds are to be carried out in exact time, indicating a double stroke of the hammer). In the third and fourth measures one can hear the blood trickle (trills in the left hand). He is desperate at finding no inspiration (fifth measure); he strikes again with the hammer and with greater force (thirty-second notes twice in succession during the crescendo). In the key of A flat he finds his powers again. Appeased, he seeks his former key and closes contentedly."</p>
This should give you some idea of how they thought, although these of course were not the words of Chopin. I would doubt that those in the Baroque era thought the same way about music then, or at least not in such an extreme way.
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Re: "Baroque" & "Romantic"
This should give you some idea of how they thought, although these of course were not the words of Chopin. I would doubt that those in the Baroque era thought the same way about music then, or at least not in such an extreme way.
I think they were just as extreme. The way Bach for example follows text literally, or the use of numbers is sometimes far fetched.
Re: "Baroque" & "Romantic"
I see your point to some extent. But perhaps it could be said that word setting and this usage of numbers you mention (which, admittedly, I am not so aware of), is a very literal method of expressing something - a listener can hear a word like 'sin', and if set to a minor chord or some dischord, he can immediately appreciate the effect intended by the composer.
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However with the example I gave about the Chopin prelude, it's almost inconceivable that Chopin intended the listener to understand that Chopin was frustrated about losing his inspiration, so hit his head with a hammer (or at least, wanted to), and then depicted blood trickling by trills in the bass, etc. I strongly suspect that other listeners could think of an almost infinite variety of scenarios if they so desired, without any real idea what Chopin wanted them to understand from the piece (if anything, he may have wanted them to appreciate the work as a piece of abstract art).</p>
Re: "Baroque" & "Romantic"
I strongly suspect that other listeners could think of an almost infinite variety of scenarios if they so desired, without any real idea what Chopin wanted them to understand from the piece (if anything, he may have wanted them to appreciate the work as a piece of abstract art).
You're quite right in that. But why should this be different from baroque? With a lot of baroque pastorales (like Zipoli) you can almost hear the sheep like they know to set the mood. So why should that be different from Beethoven and the Moonshine? A lot of this explanations are perfect hindsight and a lot of blabla by some critics endlessly repeated everafter.
Re: "Baroque" & "Romantic"
Do you have any impressions written down by Baroque musicians who have listened to these Pastorales and conveyed their thoughts as to the intent of the music?
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