Great Composers?

[Guest]

In an article I was reading recently, one statment really got me thinking. The author, talking about Widor &amp; Rheinberger,asserted that neither of them could be considered a 'great' composer. Now, if you ask anybody who the Great Composers are we would hear the usual names...Bach...Mozart...Beethoven...Brahms...etc etc. So, what criteria must a classical composer fulfil before they can beconsidered 'great'? </P>


It occured to me that many of the common names that might be mentioned wrote little, if anything, for our great instrument. Yet the ones who did write for the organ, and those who wrote significantly for it (such as, for example, Widor) can be, by this author, denied this title. It is surely not to say that Widor's music is of poor quality - on the contrary there are many fine moments in his music, as there is in the music of Vierne, Franck, Alain, Dupre etc (I accept that these are all French, but this is where my passion lies). </P>


Any thoughts???</P>

[Guest]

Re: Great Composers?



I'm assuming the article wasn't about great composers of organ compositions, because as far as I'm concerned, Widor, Franck, Guilmant, Vierne, Dupre, Gigout, et al are all considered Great Composers, especially known within the organ world for their compositions for the King of Instruments!</P>


Of course, none of my non-organ-loving friends ever heard of Widor or Vierne, but mention Bach or Mendelssohn (who also wrote loads of hits for the wind-blown synthesizer), and they know lots of their orchestral works!</P>


Just like these same friends never heard of Walter (now Wendy) Carlos, or even ofa Moog for that matter...but they've heard Bach's Anna Magdalena Notebook and the soundtracks toTron and A Clockwork Orange!</P>

[Guest]

Re: Great Composers?



It might be worth distinguishing between the following:</P>


1. Great Composers who wrote;</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>


a. Great Organ Works; or</P>


b. Not-So Great Organ Works; and</P></BLOCKQUOTE>


2. No-So-Great Composers who wrote Great Organ Works. </P>


I assume no one cares about the No-So-Great Composers who wrote Not-So-Great Great Organ Works), and of course there are plenty of Great Composers who wrote nothing for the organ (eg Beethoven). That would also leave out great works that were not written for the organ but make great organ transcriptions.</P>


IMHO, it is pretty clear that:</P>
<UL>
<LI>Category 1.a would include JSB (of course), Mendelssohn, Brahmsand (in my view).Messiaen. </LI>
<LI>Category 1.b would include Mozart (no one can seriously maintain that his mechanical organ pieces are great works on par with even his littlest gems like the Ave Verum Corpus motet)</LI>
<LI>Category 2 would include Franck, Saint-Saëns (I don't think he is a Great Composer in the same rank as my other Cat 1 choices, and only if you classify the Organ Symphony as an organ work), Widor, Reinberger, Vierne, etc.</LI>[/list]


I think it is less clear where some of the other French Romantic composers sit, eg:</P>
<UL>
<LI>Alain and Dupre - definitely at least a Category 2 entry for me, but I don't know if either of them can be said to be a Great Composer in the same rank as JSB etc.</LI>
<LI>Faure and Durufle - I don't know whether Faure wrote any organ works (as opposed to the transcriptions of his Greatest Hits that float around) but I am surprised you didn't include Durufle in your list above.</LI>[/list]


Ultimately, all of these things are so subjective to your individual taste and opinion - personally, I avoid listening to or playing much French Romantic music, but each to their own.</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Cheers</P>
<P mce_keep="true">Kraammoz</P>

[soubasse32]

Re: Great Composers?

[quote user="kraammoz"]Category 1.b would include Mozart (no one can seriously maintain that his mechanical organ pieces are great works on par with even his littlest gems like the Ave Verum Corpus motet)[/quote]I disagree - the two great Fantasias are masterful compositions in their own right. Even the Andante for mechanical clock shows a special craft thatevidences the genius of Mozart.


[quote user="kraammoz"]Category 2 would include Franck, Saint-Saëns (I don't think he is a Great Composer in the same rank as my other Cat 1 choices, and only if you classify the Organ Symphony as an organ work), Widor, Reinberger, Vierne, etc.[/quote]I would elevate Franck above the other composers - he broke new ground with his passionate organ writing. It interests me that his printed output of organ music was so meager,yet each piece is wonderful. Franck also wrote important works such as his Symphony in D minor and the Violin Sonata - these are popular today with the general public, whereas Widor, Vierne, Rheinbergerare much less in the public consciousness (other than Widor's Toccata perhaps). Saint-Saëns is a major figure, but his solo organ pieces dim in comparison to Franck's.</P>


I also rate Alain rather highly, simply because he forged some extraordinarily new ground; he brought polyrhythms,polytonality, Hindu and Far East elements into the previously stodgy organ loft - a bold thing. Alain's misfortune is that he is in that pigeon-hole as an organ composer, though he did write much more than organ music.</P>


As far as Fauré and Duruflé - Fauré did not write specifically forsolo organ; Duruflé is similar to Franck in that his output of organ music was rather small, but each work is pure genius. Thank goodness for Duruflé's magnificent choral works, which bringhim abit more recognitionfrom the general public.</P>

[Havoc]

Re: Great Composers?



You're forgetting a large category: "forgotten" composers where the large public doesn't care about no matter what they've written. Quite a lot of magnificent music exists this way. And I feel a large part of the members of this forum ignores it just as well going blindly for the popular ones.</P>

IIRC Beethoven wrote a single piece for the organ.</P>

[Guest]

Re: Great Composers?



Thanks for your comments. I find it interesting that some of you mention composers who are not in the public consciousnessor are'forgotten'. I suppose unless you are an organist, or at leastinterestedin themusic written for the organ, the vast majority of people wouldn't have heard of, to name a few, Alain, Dupre, Durufle...even Vierne &amp;Widor! </P>


ButI assume you guys would agree that there is truely great music here, andone possible reason that theyperhaps haven't achieved 'greatness' is due toa lack of awareness by the general audience?</P>


Or perhaps to attribute any composer with the title great is purely subjective. For example, I appreciate Mozart (both his organ work andthe rest of his vast output) for the obvious genius that he was, as a technician, a musical craftsman, but that particular musical aesthetic does not appeal to me. But he is still regarded as a great composer. Alternatively, I would personally describe Vierne as a great composer , subjecively, because his musicspeaks to me on a profound level. So isit purely a matter of taste?</P>

[Menschenstimme]

Re: Great Composers?



Did Beethoven actually write a piece for organ? That would be awsome. But I have never heard of it, let alone seen a recording, etc. One would think that it would have surfaced somewhere, somewhen.</P>


???</P>

[Havoc]

Re: Great Composers?

I suppose unless you are an organist, or at least interested in the music written for the organ, the vast majority of people wouldn't have heard of, to name a few, Alain, Dupre, Durufle...even Vierne &amp; Widor!

Not only those, but also those that even the organ composers that a lot of organists have forgotten. I bet a lot of visitors here have hardly heard of or played any Zipoli, Reincken, Corrette, Seger, Brixi, Wambach, Bruna, Barié, Weckmann, Schlick,  and others. Who has played any Sweelinck lately? Or Dandrieux? Any Marchand? The 20th century composers aren't very known or popular either here.

[soubasse32]

Re: Great Composers?



[quote user="Havoc"]I bet a lot of visitors here have hardly heard of or played any Zipoli, Reincken, Corrette, Seger, Brixi, Wambach, Bruna, Barié, Weckmann, Schlick, and others. Who hasplayed any Sweelinck lately? Or Dandrieux? Any Marchand? The20th century composers aren't veryknown or popular either here.[/quote]You underestimate us! [:)]</P>


Granted, the majority of people here may not play this stuff, but some of us do. I've played Weckmann, Sweelinck, Dandrieu, and Marchandfor church. I'm quite partial to Muffat, and am very fond of all the French composers, especially DeGrigny and Daquin.</P>


You listed Barié with the earlier composers, though he is from the Romantic era. I've performed his Trois Pièces several times and the Toccata is one of my specialties. [:)]</P>


As far as Corrette (I assume you mean Michel?) Ihave played an all-Corrette recital, and was the first personoutside of France to play somerecently-discovered works.</P>

[Guest]

Re: Great Composers?



I've played Sweelinck, Buxtehude, and Daquin, among others. Most recently, I played Buxtehude for a recital and for a church service before that. </P>


Folks who know me, know that I will play just about anything on the organ to provethat the instrument is superior, relevant and versatile. </P>


I can't say that I prefer one style or period over all the others. This is because if I were to play Baroque all the time, I'd eventually gostir crazyand need to play Romantic. If I were to play Romantic all the time, I'd go stir crazy and need to play Baroque, and so on. I get bored easily which is why the organ is my favourite instrument - there's just no excuse to be bored with organs. There is one exception though - Reger. I never tire of playing Reger. His works speak to me like no other. The way he wrote his music, there is such a profound, logical, and emotional development to it. It is a profound marriage of logic and passion. Just looking at the music I can see it unfold magicallyright in front ofmy eyes, like unwrapping a Christmas present. I brought my wife to tears when I played his Toccata in D Minor. Ahh, 32 reeds are so divine with such a piece! </P>

[Havoc]

Re: Great Composers?

I know, there are some of you that do know all of them and play them. But the common garden variety of organists? Apart from Bach and the french romantic school they might have heard of Buxtehude and a few 20th century ones like Messian but then it stops.

I did mean Gaspard Corrette. There are indeed 2 of them like of Couperin. He didn't wrote much and it isn't "great music" but worth playing. I just lumped Barié with the others, 80% wouldn't know he is from a completely different period (like Wambach as well).

Now Reger, somehow I don't get him. Don't know why but he doesn't do it for me.

[soubasse32]

Re: Great Composers?

[quote user="Havoc"]I did mean Gaspard Corrette. There are indeed 2 of them like of Couperin.[/quote]There were a lot more than two Couperins! [:)] Granted, there were only two who we think of as composers today. The Couperin family were the most prolific family inFrench musical history. Wikipedia hasan interesting chart.

[Guest]

Re: Great Composers?



One genre I notice has almost disappeared is American turn-of-the-century music.  I have a Longwood Gardens CD where a lot of music is played in a style that I'd never really heard before.</P>

 </P>

Does this genre have a specific name?  It's sort of schmaltzy background music.  When I find the CD I'll post the composers.  It had things like 'Fountain Reverie' and so on.</P>

[Havoc]

Re: Great Composers?

There were a lot more than two Couperins! Granted, there were only two who we think of as composers today.

Well, that's what I'm talking about: "only 2 we think of as composers today"...
The Bach family was also rather densly populated as this chart shows: http://www.carus-verlag.com/images-i.../Stammbaum.jpg They only got the bad habit of calling them all Johann-something [6]

[Guest]

Re: Great Composers?



[quote user="Havoc"]You're forgetting a large category: "forgotten" composers where the large public doesn't care about no matter what they've written. Quite a lot of magnificent music exists this way. And I feel a large part of the members of this forum ignores it just as well going blindly for the popular ones.[/quote]</P>


One such forgottencomposer I personally would also considergreat is Charles-Valentin Alkan (1813-1888). From my research, he was described as a mysterious, reclusivecomposer, even in his own lifetime since he really did little to promote much of his compositions for organ and for his favorite instrument, the concert pedal-piano! During his lifetime, his reputation as a pianist was legendary, but after winning the Premier Prix at the Paris Conservatoire for organ playing at 20, no further organ works can be found (although much of his later music was published for both organand pedal-piano). </P>


If it can still be found, I would recommend the only recording I could find on Alkan's works, Alkan Organ Music: Kevin Bowyer, organist (1991 Musical Heritage Society, 512997L). Much of this uplifting music was composed for the pedal-piano, but can also be performed on the organ to excellent results. It's not your standard French Romantic fare IMHO, but its musicality is stirring and quite involved in a pianistic sort of way...highly recommended listening (and playing...just wish I could play it)!</P>