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Registering Duruflé’s Requiem...tutti sans 16...what does it mean exactly?

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  • Registering Duruflé’s Requiem...tutti sans 16...what does it mean exactly?

    All reeds, mixtures and principals minus any 16’s?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Janemkaye View Post
    All reeds, mixtures and principals minus any 16’s?
    Oui, c'est vrai! (Translation: Yes, that's correct!). Sans in French always means without. You may also see Grand Jeu or Plein Jeu when playing French music. One is full organ without reeds & mixtures, and the other is with. Another thing I noticed when playing Fauré's Requiem was the notation M.D. or more commonly M.G. That stands for Main Droite (right hand) and Main Gauche (left hand).

    Welcome to the Forum, by the way. I hope you enjoy your time here.

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

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    • #3
      Hi and welcome! Michael has a better command of the French lingo than I have of English! And I thought that I was of French origin....:embarrassed:

      Enjoy the mob on this Forum!

      Nico
      "Don't make war, make music!" Hammonds, Lowreys, Yamaha's, Gulbransens, Baldwin, Technics, Johannus. Reed organs. Details on request... B-)

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      • #4
        This website:
        http://faculty.bsc.edu/jhcook/orghis...ry/hist029.htm

        offers the following info:

        "In compositions where an ensemble of voices is wanted, rather than a solo line, there are two common registrations used in French Classical practice, used both to indicate the stops that are to be used and as titles of pieces:

        Plein jeu: principals at 16', 8', 4', 2' pitches, Fournitures, Cymbales, and Bourdons at 16' and 8' pitches, the Positif coupled to the Grand orgue.

        Grand jeu: reeds at 8' and 4' pitches, Cornets, Bourdon 8', flute mutations of the 8' harmonic series, and the 4' Prestant, the Positif coupled to the Grand orgue.

        The Classical Plein Jeu is, of course, related to similar registrations in both Dutch and German practices, and is a descendant of the Medieval Blockwerk in both content and practice. The Grand Jeu, on the other hand, is a quintessentially French sound, one that has been associated with the French Classical organ and its music since the earliest sources."

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        • #5
          Remember, too, that "Grand Jeu" and "Plein Jeu" are terms from the French Classical Organ School, which we might call a branch or subset of the French Baroque.

          As an organ registration, "Tutti" is from a later time period, so it's not likely that you'd find all 3 terms being used in the same piece.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by regeron View Post
            As an organ registration, "Tutti" is from a later time period, so it's not likely that you'd find all 3 terms being used in the same piece.
            Good catch, Regeron. Based on that alone, I'd suspect some of the directions are from the editor vs. the composer.

            The French were very specific in their directives--both in the Baroque and Romantic eras. At least, performance practice was well understood at the time, so a simple directive such as Plein Jeu would have been understood by contemporaries, but less well understood by 21st century organists. Therefore, the directives given almost certainly contain editor's suggestions as well as composer's directives.

            Could you share the edition you're using?

            Michael
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

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            • #7
              Durand Editions Musicales

              Also, the chamber version without trumpets....
              Last edited by myorgan; 04-19-2018, 05:11 PM.

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              • #8
                Durufle's "Prelude et Fugue sur le nom d'Alain" has a 'Tutti' indication at the end. In Durufle's time, a Plein Jeu was a mixture stop.

                Durand is an excellent edition and I could see Durufle having complete control of 'editorial markings'.

                To return to the original question, I would suggest that "tutti sans 16'" = everything except the 16's, as the original poster proposed.

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                • #9
                  Regeron, thank you!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by regeron View Post
                    To return to the original question, I would suggest that "tutti sans 16'" = everything except the 16's, as the original poster proposed.
                    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't some French Romantic organs' Diapason Chorus in the Great built on a 16' stop? I've even heard of one organ based on a 32' stop in the Great. Granted most organs today are based on the 4' Octave or 8' Principal.

                    Once I did more research on Duruflé, I would almost not place him in the French Romantic era, except by training. His music is more early to mid 20th century. The piece should probably be performed as originally indicated (forget the conversation about Plein Jeu et Grand Jeu).

                    Michael
                    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      As a point of reference, here's the organ that Durufle played at the time of writing of the Requiem:
                      http://www.musiqueorguequebec.ca/org...etiennemp.html
                      Full stoplists and English text at the bottom of this webpage.
                      MICHAEL - it looks like this organ has had a 16' Principal (Montre) for a couple hundred years already, not just since Romantic times.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by regeron View Post
                        As a point of reference, here's the organ that Durufle played at the time of writing of the Requiem:
                        http://www.musiqueorguequebec.ca/org...etiennemp.html
                        Full stoplists and English text at the bottom of this webpage.
                        MICHAEL - it looks like this organ has had a 16' Principal (Montre) for a couple hundred years already, not just since Romantic times.
                        Regeron,

                        What I find fascinating is that the organ never had an 9' Principal of any type until the late 1800s. I've never seen that in an organ this size before. Thanks for sharing the stoplist (of course I read the French before finding the English translation!):embarrassed: Good practice, I guess.

                        Michael
                        Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                        • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                        • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                        • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I asked a friend of mine who is a HUGE fan of anything to do with French organs. I sent him the link that I included above, with the question: "Is it possible that the pre-Cavaille-Coll organ could have NOT had an 8' Principal anywhere in the whole organ?" Here is his response:

                          "Absolutely not possible. Every French Classical organ had montre and bourdon 8 on the Gt. Fenner Douglass' book points out the same mistake in Mersenne's music encyclopedia 'Harmonie universelle' (1636). There is a list of the standard stops 'des grands orgues' and there is no montre 8 listed."

                          Unfortunately, as I continue to look for another version of the pre-Cavaille-Coll stoplist for St-Etienne-du-Mont, Paris, I can find nothing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Regeron,

                            Excellent information. I believed it to be true, but wasn't sure if there would be exceptions to the rule, and why there might be exceptions to the rule. Thanks for checking.

                            Michael
                            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                            • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Registering Durufls Requiem tutti sans 16 what does it mean exactly

                              Yo all,
                              Im learning a late baroque French piece by Benaut, and there is a bit of notation I am unfamiliar with. A half note playing the octave with a slash through the stem. What does the slash indicate?
                              HD Wallpapers

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