He wrote these pieces for organ or harpsichord, or instruments. There is no pedal part in the original, however, some editors add a pedal part derived from the bass line.
Bill
My home organ: Content M5800 as a midi controller for Hauptwerk
I love the D'aquin Noels, and play #10 every year ""in season". I'm also very fond on numbers 1 and 12. My understanding is that the pedal part is obbligato from the left hand, if you desire. The left hand at the climactic moments (especially the end) is usually played by most organists with a full "Grande Choeur", which means a 16' reed in the left hand. I think "either/or" is the sensible approach. Glad to see another organist working with these wonderful gems of the French Baroque literature. I like Balbastre's Noels, too. André Marchal edited an edition of D'Aquin's Noels in 1957 - if you can find that edition, see what he did. Marchal's work would be considered the "last word" by most organists.
Dear Friends,
Does anybody know if in the section of this piece with Pedal, if the left hand should play anything?
If my question was not clear enough, please just let me know!
Thanks,
Thredboskier.
As with many French organ pieces from the classical era, the question of using the pedal is always prone to debate.
To begin, I suggest that one should get acquainted with how French organs had been built during the 18th century. As compared to actual American Organs, their tonal structure was much different. There was not such a thing as derived stops, and even the Gt. to Ped. coupler was far from being systematically present. In addition, the Ped. division of these organs did not systematically include 16' stops, while such low-pitched voices were available in the Gt. division! Pedal reeds were very loudly voiced. Generally speaking, pedalboards of more than 18 notes were not so common.
In addition, the pedalboard was very different in design, given that pedals were very small in size and short in length. One could only alternate between toes, as playing with the heel was not an option. Consequently, playing legato was quite an achievement, though not impossible. But I am digressing.
The "Grand Jeu" was one of the loudest combinations of the classical French organ. It required: 8' Trompette and 4' Clairon on Gt., Pos. and Ped. As reed stops tended to be weaker in the treble, high-pitched flue stops were added in: 4' Prestant, and V ranks Cornet. If 16' reed were available, some composers would advise to include them in the mix (especially in Ped.) - but not all of them. One peculiar thing to this era, is that flue stops were not systematically added to reeds in the pedal division, probably to save wind and keep the voice of Ped. trumpets clear. I am not so sure that this is still relevant on a current organ.
To come back to your question, in the "Grand Jeu" section of Noël X, Guilmant advocated the pedal to be used on very loud sections. It is not incorrect to do so. Some organists would save the effect of the very loud pedal reeds only to accentuate cadenzas: this is also perfectly right and maybe would make the organ sound less heavy. What is important, as with all classical French music, is to keep things as clear as possible for the listeners.
But all of that remains only my opinion
Good luck!
The Plein Jeu was the plenum registration: montres, prestants and doublettes 8' 4' and 2' with the Fournitures et Cymbales which were the mixtures (even if there is a 16' it will not be used). Those mixtures went to 10 and more ranks.
The Grand Jeu was reed based, adding the trompette 8' and clairon 4' to the prestant 4' and the Cornet V (Cornet here being stopped 8', 4', 2', 2'2/3, 1' 3/5). Keep in mind that the french classical reeds were not the rounded, slow romantic reeds. They were fierce, rather raw and harsh cutting through everything.
The pedal would often have nothing more than flute 8' and 4' and reed 8' and 4'. Those never to be used together!
The Plein Jeu was the plenum registration: montres, prestants and doublettes 8' 4' and 2' with the Fournitures et Cymbales which were the mixtures (even if there is a 16' it will not be used). Those mixtures went to 10 and more ranks.
The Grand Jeu was reed based, adding the trompette 8' and clairon 4' to the prestant 4' and the Cornet V (Cornet here being stopped 8', 4', 2', 2'2/3, 1' 3/5). Keep in mind that the french classical reeds were not the rounded, slow romantic reeds. They were fierce, rather raw and harsh cutting through everything.
The pedal would often have nothing more than flute 8' and 4' and reed 8' and 4'. Those never to be used together!
Your reply is very precise and much interesting! However, I am sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with some details of your post.
French pedalboards could be used for much more than long sustained notes. Indeed in Couperin or Balbastre pieces, you can find many examples of obbligato pedal parts that require fast and accurate movement. If required, I can provide you with the scores.
It might be useful to remember that clarity was very important to French organ music. Leaving space between notes was not a problem at all, it was even advised in reverberant acoustics. So playing portions of scales with the same foot was very common, with toes only.
About the Plein Jeu, you may refer to Dom Bedos, which is a most reliable source. But, other composers of the period also wrote prefaces to their organ books, and it was not an heresy to include the 16' Bourdon or even the 16' Montre to the Plein Jeu. It provided much majesty and seriousness to the accompaniment, while the cantus firmus played with 8' and 4' pedal reeds would be clearly distinguished.
In the midst of the 19th century, Plein Jeu and Grand Jeu would blend together so as to give birth to the Grand Choeur. This was previously not advised mostly because of wind management problems, which were solved during the 19th century.
Finally, it is true that on a theoretical point of view, "Pédales de flute", and "Pédale de trompette" should not be mixed together. However, reeds were sometimes so harsh that composers would advise to soften them with flue stops. Good taste was always preeminent on theory. You can even find composers that would advise including the 8' Bourdon in the Grand Jeu, which may appear pure heresy to the Grand Jeu aesthetics. Or, more commonly, the 4' Prestant with the Cromorne (also, to avoid the weakness of the treble part of baroque french reed stops). Later on, those stops will end up being divided into bass/discant so as to find a better balance between bass and treble. I can also provide sources if required (in French).
Thank you very much for reading, and for such an interesting discussion.
I think you would be a good person to ask this question: What do the words "Ravalement" and "Grande Ravalement" mean in English? I mean, how would they translate to "organist English"? Your command of English is excellent, and I have been wondering about the definition of that word/s for years. Thank you for any response!
@smsfre: well generalisations will never be precise for specific cases. But they are always a good starting point. I have no problem to accept that sometimes composers added guidelines but you have to be careful with those as well. The preface to the works of Marchand was written later. Likewise what happened to the meaning of Grand jeu and Plein jeu in the 19th century is not really relevant to works of Daquin.
Yes, I'm interested in your examples of Balbastre and Couperin. For starters just the reference to the piece and edition is fine.
@Melos: a ravalement is very typical french. Mostly it is taken to mean a keyboard with extended compas compared to what was typical at the time. But ravalement more generally means "overhaul". And for harpiscords this means a rebuild of an older valuable instrument. A grand ravalement would mean there were also changes to the case, soundboard and associated parts. Almost a new one.
@smsfre: well generalisations will never be precise for specific cases. But they are always a good starting point. I have no problem to accept that sometimes composers added guidelines but you have to be careful with those as well. The preface to the works of Marchand was written later. Likewise what happened to the meaning of Grand jeu and Plein jeu in the 19th century is not really relevant to works of Daquin.
Yes, I'm interested in your examples of Balbastre and Couperin. For starters just the reference to the piece and edition is fine.
In fact, I was not specifically quoting Marchand. I think you may be interested in this document which is a thorough review of French registration guidelines. There was some variability among composers, according to the organ they were used to, their personal taste, and so forth.
Dom Bedos has written "On y mettra toutes les Montres, tous les 8 pieds ouverts, tous les Bourdons (...)", which could be translated into "One should pull all Montres, all open 8' stops, all Bourdons (...)". This rather suggests that 16' Bourdon and Montre should be included in the Plein Jeu. In addition, you may notice that contemporary authors with Daquin like Corette would include 16' Bourdon in the Plein Jeu.
But in the end I totally agree with you: it is necessary to be careful with any guideline. Registration is more a matter of taste than of a meticulous but thoughtless application of an old text. Actual organs are very far away from French classical aesthetics, they indeed do not belong to the same universe. Montre 16' is often too narrow in scale, Bourdon 16' too loud. Even after listening to historical organs, it remains sometimes puzzling.
For examples, I would cite :
- F. Couperin, Messe des Couvents, 5ème couplet "Domine Deus, Agnus Dei" (Chromhorne en taille), ms 22 (Guilmant Ed. p63). On a french pedalboard, alternating toes is not so easy, so using the same foot for the scale fragment is the most valid option,
- F. Couperin, Messe des Paroisses, 8ème couplet "Tu solus Altissimus" (Dialogue en trio, du Cornet et de la Tierce), ms 46-51 (Guilmant Ed. p26). The leap ms. 60 is also not so easy on a french pedalboard.
- Balbastre : Trio a trois mains. I had this video in mind, but as I took a look at the score, the bass part is noted "Cromhorne", so my example is not valid. However, it illustrates how such a pedalboard can be judiciously used.
- A. Raison : Livre d'orgue contenant cinq messes, Messe du premier ton, Elevation (trio a trois claviers).
One point I would insist on is that even if those pedal parts may appear technically simple by current standards, on a French pedalboard, they required accuracy. I guess you already had the pleasure to play a historical small tracker action French organ, it requires quite some work to be able to express things with clarity and distinction. ("generalisations" is a French orthograph... am I talking to a fellow Frenchman ?)
As movement was limited, it was extremely important to be fast, and very accurate when moving any part of the body. Of course, this should not be compared with romantic pedaling which required a german pedalboard. Technical difficulty varies according to the device you play on!
@Melos: a ravalement is very typical french. Mostly it is taken to mean a keyboard with extended compas compared to what was typical at the time. But ravalement more generally means "overhaul". And for harpiscords this means a rebuild of an older valuable instrument. A grand ravalement would mean there were also changes to the case, soundboard and associated parts. Almost a new one.
I think you would be a good person to ask this question: What do the words "Ravalement" and "Grande Ravalement" mean in English? I mean, how would they translate to "organist English"? Your command of English is excellent, and I have been wondering about the definition of that word/s for years. Thank you for any response!
Tony
A "ravalement" used to be an extension of the compass of keyboards, most often in the bass. It mostly concerned pedal reeds. It can be an extension of the pedalboard down low C, or even a short octave. With "grand ravalement", French pedalboards could go down to low F. This is why you can sometimes see odd pipe sizes in the pedal department in French organs, like Trompette 12' or Clairon 6'. If you take a very close look at the video that is suggested earlier, you'll notice that the pedalboard starts at low F (F, G, G#, A, etc).
This explains why you can sometimes find notes below low C in baroque French scores. Another instance is the Pièce d'Orgue of Bach, but this point is prone to discussion.
I was not aware of harpsichord ravalements, thank you Havoc!
As of today, the appropriate word for an overhaul, at least for an organ, would be "relevage".
Many thanks for your kind attention to my English, there is still a lot of work to do but writing in this forum is a very useful and inspiring exercise!
I apologize for the long post, but I hope it will be useful.
Hello smsfre, I cannot stress enough how I like it to find someone on this forum that likes baroque music and is interested in its historical context and performance. Great to find someone that can find joy in something else than the romantic tradition. The book about prefaces and registrations you linked is great! Going to take some time to read in it but it is very useful to find all those little prefaces in one place. Certainly as the scores you find on the net do not contain them. And often they are more interesting than the music. I do know Dom Bedos work, got a facsimile in the bookcase but that is set aside for when I retire. Reading old french isn't something to do as bedside lecture.
Oh yes, in case you wondered, I'm not french but I'm from Flanders. So I can read, speak and write french but to be honest it is worse than your english. So don't worry, noody here can write french to the same standard as you write english. "Generalisations" is the UK spelling. US english uses the "z" but UK english uses the "s". We do have some organs in Flanders that can do a very credible french classical impression. You really need to hear the organs of Haringe and the abbey organ of Ninove.
That aside, I took my edition of F. Couperin (L'oiseau Lyre, Les Remparts Monaco 1949) that "follows" the manuscript give to the engraver in 1690 (bought in a secondhand shop in Rouen last century for 30 FF (nouveau)). Indeed there are pedal parts that you wouldn't expect in classical french organ music. It also mentions some ad lib pedal parts. I did play once on a small organ with a typical french pedal but at that time I wasn't up to it and so far it has been my only occasion to play such an instrument. I'm going to be honest, Balbastre and Raison I never played. So far I only did some Marchand (that's why I know the preface has been written by Titon du Tillet (bought at the same shop)), Daquin, Clerembault, Couperin, Gaspard Corette and Marin Marais. I really love the french classical organ music! The raw power can be intoxicating. I don't consider anything written later than the sons of J.S.Bach to be music :D
This is how a typical french pedal board would have look at the time of Daquin
In Holland this kind of pedal can also be found, i.e. in the Brabant village Hilvarenbeek (near Flanders). See attachment, from http://www.brabantorgel.nl/Hilvarenb..._frameset.html. This was build in 1840! On this organ organist Ad van Sleuwen has recorded a CD with works from Boyvin.
Regards, Dutchy
PS: Rather high EU ratio in this thread!;-)
PS2: Sorry, my English is not as good as Havoc and smsfre:embarrassed:.
In Holland this kind of pedal can also be found, i.e. in the Brabant village Hilvarenbeek (near Flanders). See attachment, from.... This was build in 1840! On this organ organist Ad van Sleuwen has recorded a CD with works from Boyvin.
Regards, Dutchy
PS: Rather high EU ratio in this thread!;-)
PS2: Sorry, my English is not as good as Havoc and smsfre:embarrassed:.
Your english is fine, don't worry. You should read, hear and listen to the dutch/french of our US and UK friends on the forum :D
I think this thread is getting a high EU ratio because our anglo-saxon friends on the forum are not as interested in historical research or practice (*). They are more interested in what is the (french) romantic tradition and highly standardised organs according to some late 19th century ideal. Most likely because they do not have access to the incredible wide range of historical organs we have around us. They would run away screaming in horror if they heard the recordings I have of french baroque on the Haringe organ or those of the Dom Bedos in Bordeaux (**) :D
(*) another generalisation
(**) I really need to hear this one life, even better, play on it.
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