Newbie Pedaling Questions

[Steve Freides]

Brief background: short legs, 4th year organist who still doesn't use pedals much, and I've picked this hymn because, at my current skill level, I stand a chance of being able to play it up to able-to-use-in-church tempo with pedals. JPEG of the music is attached - We Three Kings from the UMC hymnal.

At the start of the 2nd page, I'm doing this, all with my right foot:

Toe on G quarter, heel on G eighth, then for the three eights: toe on B, heel on A, toe on G

Good? Bad? I wear organ shoes - no way my left foot can reach up there.

NB: My preferred self-teaching method is to play SA with my right hand, T with my left, and B with pedals. I'm well aware there are other options, but this option seems most challenging, and in a beneficial way, to my improvement as an organist.

Thanks very much in advance for your replies.

-S-

[Dutchy]

Hmm, if you really cannot reach that G with your left foot, this seems a reasonable solution.

But.if you are able to reach the A with your right heel, I would gues that you should be able to reach the G with your left toe. Maybe your position on the organ bench is not good? Your upper legs must be at least halfway free to move, as in the photograph below. It is Willem van Twillert, a professional Dutch organist (and a good one too). Note his short legs and his forward position on the bench.




[source: http://www.willemvantwillert.nl/index/column.htm, scroll down for a larger picture]



Hope this helps, D

[Steve Freides]

Dutchy, you raise an interesting point. I have avoided sitting that far forward because, if I do, I must support myself with my hands and I think that's not good for my playing. I've have tried to have the forwardmost position on the bench that still allows me to stay on the bench without using my hands for support.

-S-

[lcid]

FWIW and considered unorthodox by some, I play these notes with the same toe-heel combination, but with my left foot an octave lower. I have had two excellent professional church organists tell me this was acceptable in hymn playing. I recognize your score as coming from the United Methodist Hymnal #254 and it is with a Methodist church that I first began disciplining myself to play strictly SATB. It was a trial by fire, but I was successful. I had improvised on hymns tunes before playing for a Pentecostal church. And needless to say, this style was not what the Methodists wanted. I wish you keyboard progress and God's blessings in this New Year.

[Steve Freides]

lcid, I, too, have switched octaves in the bass at times, both pedals and when I'm playing all the parts on a manual. I've also sometimes played SAT on the Swell and a bass line on the Great with a 16 foot stop on the Great, and in the right hand, I just catch what I can catch in whatever octave I can reach with one hand. It's all good, IMHO, on our instrument where we can change the octave just by choosing a different stop, anyway.

-S-

[Leisesturm]

There is a difference, I think, between 'acceptable' and 'correct'. Playing sequences and such in different octaves is indeed 'acceptable'. Is it correct? No, it is not. Do I do it? Absolutely, but I can do it 'correctly' as well. Given a hymn with three or four verses I would at least play one verse 'correctly'. That's just me. I didn't think that organists position was all that far forward. Seemed about average to me. If it was an organ I had to play all the time I would make sure it fit me. Benches can be shortened. What foot plays a pedal is dictated by the passage that that pedal note lies in. No one would say that the lowest C of the keyboards should only be played by the left hand. The left foot indeed can, with only moderate difficulty get to notes at the extreme upper end of the pedalboard. It's rarely needed to do for hymns but lots of literature requires the ability. The way I would go from the bottom of page one over to page two would be to go from left foot D to right foot G, switch silently to the left foot while holding the G. Articulate the eighth note G with the left foot. Now the right foot is free to take the B and heel/toe down the scale. It is completely fluid and natural now. It wasn't always. In the end how it sounds always trumps how it's played. Even Bach didn't have any problem with that.

[regeron]

#1 There are no pedaling police who will arrest you if (you think) you are using the wrong foot or playing in the wrong octave.

#2 Hymns of this nature are scored for 4-part singing: SATB. Yes the singers should sing their notes as written, but if anyone (other than melody singers) should have problems with their range matching what's required of them, there is some room for some octave displacements. (I have a bass who has trouble with the lowest notes.) The organist's job is generally to support and enhance the singing. If what you're doing, including playing in a different octave, makes it easier for you to help the singers, then there really is no problem

#3 Referencing Bach - Congregational hymns were unison, organ accompaniments were improvised by the better players. (Published arrangements were and still are available for those less skilled.) The organists of quality and repute would have played a different arrangement for each verse: 2-, 3-,4- and 5-voice settings; melody in top, bottom or middle voices. changes of harmony. Our North American hymnals, written in 4 voices for the most part, have made it very easy for choirs and congregations to be able to sing harmony, but it has led to a mistaken belief that if you do anything other than what's written in the hymnal, you are doomed.

#4 My choir and congregation tend to sing in harmony for all except first and last verses, unless instructed otherwise. Although I won't change the harmony on those verses, I will often drop the pedal altogether (still playing in 4 parts) or switch to a 2- or 3-part arrangement, with or without pedal. There are other things that I'll do, often on the fly, to make the accompaniment match the text of each verse. When I accompany from the piano, the changes are even more distant from what's written in the hymnbook.

#5 Continue to strive to play the notes as written. Work on your pedal technique so that you have more possible pedaling solutions to this problem. As your experience and skill grow, you will find yourself modifying your playing to take advantage of these improvements.

#6 Enjoy!

[Peterboroughdiapason]

Actually, this hymn was not scored for 4-part singing. It was, I think, specially written for a pageant and the verses were written for three solo men. Hopkins, the composer and author, wrote: "Each of verses 2, 3 and 4 is sung as a solo, to the music of Gaspard's part in the 1st and 5th verses, the accompaniment and chorus being the same throughout. Only verses 1 and 5 are sung as a trio." (Gaspard's part being the familiar melody.)

I think the verse should always be sung in unison (or in the original trio form) but the chorus is good in harmony. If the verse is in unison than there is no harm in playing pedal part on the first line of page two down an octave.

The version here has a bar added, gratuitously, at the end of the verse part, completely destroying the 4-bar phrasing. Also the two notes for the first word of the chorus should be a crotchet and quaver (quarter note and eight note). Admittedly, in the UK, these two notes are usually sung as if both had a pause on them, but I think rewriting them without comment is bad editorial practice.

In the particular instance in the original post, playing those notes at the beginning of page 2 with the left foot is fine if it works. However, I do think you should aim to be able to play G comfortably with your left foot. I would suggest experimenting with the seat height (if it's adjustable) and moving it in and out so that you can do this.

In general terms, I agree with those who say it is bad practice to play the pedal part of hymns an octave lower all the time. It shouldn't become habitual. Now that I've retired to a village and play a small organ I do do this much more to give a bit more depth, but not for every verse.

[andijah]

However, I do think you should aim to be able to play G comfortably with your left foot.

I agree. Even if you can't change the height of the organ bench, it is allowed to move around on the organ bench while playing (just try not to fall down ;-))

In Flor Peeter's organ method (book 2) there are pedal scales (major and minor) over two octaves, using both right and left food beyond the "middle" of the pedalboard. Example for C major:
start on the low C with the toe of your left foot.
The scale could then be played as follows: LT (left toe), LH (left heel), RT (right toe), LT, LH, RT, LT, LH (you've now reached the middle c), LT, RT, LH, LT, RT, RH (right heel), RT (upper c). And down again :-)
Note that you'll turn your foot and also cross feet - it's allowed.

But then again, there's no pedalling police. You can do almost anything that works for you, although it doesn't hurt to learn and practice a bit of technique.

[Dutchy]

However, I do think you should aim to be able to play G comfortably with your left foot. I would suggest experimenting with the seat height (if it's adjustable) and moving it in and out so that you can do this.

I think this was said before, see second post.

[regeron]

As some form of consolation, when I was first learning to play the organ, I found that some organs were difficult to sit at. I felt I was going to fall off or at least not have total freedom to play how I would have liked. I see now that over time, my own body awareness and control have improved with experience to the point that this is much less of an issue now.

There are still, however, some problem organs in town - one has a pedalboard that is way too sensitive, another has a pedalboard that is not built to regular standards, such that several well-qualified organists have complained about hitting wrong notes in certain ranges. Another has a bench problem as a result of sawing the bottom off the legs but not doing that precise a job. The bench rocks ever so slightly - not enough to fall over, but enough that you can get a bit of a start and "think" you are going over. The saw job was unnecessary and foolish, but happened under the direction of an untrained, inexperienced organist.

[lcid]

This may be of interest. One of my first organ teachers insisted on adding a horizontal pedal notation line just below each bass clef staff of the hymn score. Toe-heel marks below the line: left foot. Marks above the line: right foot. After I gained some pedaling skills this extra line was omitted except for occasional use with a difficult passage. The attached photo is not very clear, but the idea is well represented.

[Peterboroughdiapason]

I think this was said before, see second post.

Yes, it was. Though I think some of the benefit of multiple answers to queries is that the questioner gets an idea of how much general agreement there is.

As a matter of fact, my post #8 was more about the cavalier editing of this hymn tune than playing this pedal note. That, of course, was no help to the original poster and not what he asked. Apologies to him!

However -off topic - I do think editors of hymn books should show more respect to authors and composers. I don't like it when changes are made without acknowledgement - just a personal gripe!

Anyway, sorry for annoying you Dutchy.

[Dutchy]

Though I think some of the benefit of multiple answers to queries is that the questioner gets an idea of how much general agreement there is.

Well, I didn't view it that way till now, but you are right here. This is a usefull point of view! Thanks for the explanation,

Regards, Dutchy.