The amazing thumb

[henrik.hank]

I often see things like this: https://bluesjazzpiano.com/major-sixths-scales.html
In this example the thumb is forbidden to play C-D-E. They want you to alternate between finger 1 and 2. I had an organ leson today and my teacher don't see why the the thumbs can't play C-D-E.
The thumb is amazing. Let's look at this example of sixths: A-C, G-B, F#-A. Here my teacher would play C,B, A with the thumb. I agree that this is the best.
The thumb is amazing and you can D-Eb wih only the thumb. You can actually move up from a white key to a black key with the thumb.
I see no reason for "weird" fingerings when playing third intervals.
Do anyone of you really like those "weird" fingerings for the sixths?
My teacher is very good at playing keyboards and he don't seem to like it.
Maybe some people underestimate the thumb.
What is going on?

[regeron]

I don't think this is so much about 'forbidding' the thumb, as it is about offering you a better way. Using finger 2 as part of the playing of scales in 6ths makes it faster and more accurate. the link you provided doesn't explicitly forbid an all-thumbs approach. It just gives us a better way.

There are also lots of piano studies which includes long strings of parallel 6ths and the recommended fingering is thumb and pinky only. All technical exercises are designed to help us improve our ability at the keyboard. Playing scales with the fingerings shown in your examples makes us better players. Playing scales with the thumb-pinky fingerings as found in several studies also makes us better players.

These fingerings are not 'weird.' They are common for anyone who has studied keyboard technique. You may find them unusual, but that speaks more to a lack of experience on your part. You can get over that if you remain open-minded.

In the same way, we learn the RH fingering for C Major scale - 1-2-3 / 1-2-3-4-5. There are other possible fingerings, but in our day and age, this is considered the most efficient, capable of going faster and being more accurate and fitting into a system of fingering patterns for other scales.

I agree that the thumb is talented. As part of my organ lessons with a very good organist, we had to play entire scales with only our thumb. The point was not that we do it in public or in any particular piece of music. It was to help us train the thumb to do more than what we did with it up to that point. It's very similar to an athlete going to a gym to work on a particular group of muscles. You focus on a part of a system to improve the qualities of that component. Then when you put it back to use in the whole system, everything else benefits.

You mention playing in thirds but I can't see what fingering you are actually referring to. Your example only shows 6ths. I looked through that website quickly and found the fingering for thirds based on 1-3 / 2-4 and 1-3 / 2-4 / 3-5. What I didn't see was the fingering 1-2 / 1-3 / 2-4 / 3-5, which is also very common for playing scales in thirds. For example, I've learned to play one octave of C major scale as 1-3 / 2-4 / 3-5 // 1-2 / 1-3 / 2-4 / 3-5.

[myorgan]

I knew a student once who played parallel thirds as 1-4 / 2-3 / 1-4 / 2-3, etc. Everyone's hands are put together differently and in his case, it was how his hands worked. Of course, he also learned some of the fingerings Regeron provided above, just to make sure he had extra techniques at his disposal.

Michael

[ShadyJoe]

Umm...Isn't the thumb "1"? I see 1's all over those scales, along with many 2's, 3's, 4's, and 5's. Will you please teach me what those numbers mean? I would have my thumbs all over those scales. My I'm sticking my thumb in the wrong place.

[myorgan]

It's sometimes called a thumb glissando when you go from the first knuckle of the thumb to the tip of the thumb, etc. It can be easier for a person to play them if they have double-jointed thumbs. For others, it's more difficult, but necessary if playing large intervals in parallel.

Michael

[henrik.hank]

These fingerings are not 'weird.' They are common for anyone who has studied keyboard technique. You may find them unusual, but that speaks more to a lack of experience on your part. You can get over that if you remain open-minded.

my teacher did actually tell me to play A-C, G-B, F#-A with 5-1, 4-1, 3-1.
I know that this is not a scale.
Maybe you think my teacher doesn't know how to play the organ but he is very good at it.
also, the fingerings in the example I gave you are wrong. The third finger can't play E. So I have spotted a mistake. Can anyone please give me an example with the correct fingerings.
I just wanted to know why many examples give the incorrect fingerings.

[regeron]

my teacher did actually tell me to play A-C, G-B, F#-A with 5-1, 4-1, 3-1.
I know that this is not a scale.
Maybe you think my teacher doesn't know how to play the organ but he is very good at it.
also, the fingerings in the example I gave you are wrong. The third finger can't play E. So I have spotted a mistake. Can anyone please give me an example with the correct fingerings.
I just wanted to know why many examples give the incorrect fingerings.

A-C, G-B, F#-A may not be a complete scale, but it is part of a scale.

There are a lot of E's in your example. I assume that you mean any instance where there is an E a 6th above a C. If that is the case, the third finger certainly can play the E. If you are talking about another place where the third finger plays E, please let me know and I will modify my comment.

TEACHERS - we can all have excellent teachers. That doesn't mean they know everything. Even a good teacher has opportunities to continue to learn.

Here are some common fingerings for the interval of a 6th: 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5 & 2-5. Here are two more fingerings that are very difficult but might be required in a very particular circumstance: 2-4 and 3-5.

[andijah]

Can anyone please give me an example with the correct fingerings.
I just wanted to know why many examples give the incorrect fingerings.

In my experience, there's no such thing as "correct" or "incorrect" fingerings. There are more or less suitable options, but there's no general rule as each hand (and fingers) is different. Of course there are fingerings that are a lot more comfortable than others, for example when you play a B major scale, it helps to use your thumb on the white keys and your index, middle and ring finger on the black keys but this doesn't mean that it's the only possible way of playing such a scale. Same goes for parallel intervals. One has to find a solution that fits one's ability and hand. This can be done with or without a teacher. When working with students, I always try to be openminded and pragmatic. For example, some say you should never use your thumb on the black keys. I say, use it if it makes sense.

And by the way, there are people who will tell you that you shouldn't use your thumb to play "old" music (Johann Sebastian Bach, contemporaries and earlier). This is an interesting way of playing (and boils my brain) but again, it's not the only possibility.

[Dutchy]

As far as in 1619, German theorist Michael Praetorius stated that several different and sometimes conflicting theories about fingering existed. He didn't advocate one of them, in contrary, he was sceptic about hem. He stated thad the only thing that matters, is the sound effect.
If it sounds good, the fingering is good, even if you played with your very nose, he stated.

I like this kind of relativism, at the same time saying, with andijah: some fingerings are more suitable for certain passages than others.

Even the same passage can be convenient fingered in different ways, not only depending on your hands but also on the manual in question (many Durch mechanical organs require much finger power, so one 'automatically' makes less use of the weak index finger) or on the desired articulation or frasing (i.e. an sixth skip with one finger instead of with thumb - index or so, is convenient when frasing or articulating that sixth but inconveneint when is is to be played smooth legato.