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    #16
    Originally posted by myorgan View Post
    I'll deliberately not quote anyone so they don't feel targeted (not my intent).
    As already mentioned, Suzuki is probably the most prevalent advocate for what some would consider "alternative music education theories." Probably following him, Kodály with his hand signs based on Solfège and the concept of movable Do would be considered another leading alternative theory of communicating musically (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kod%C3...ental_approach). Gaining popularity in the 1970s through 1980s would be Carl Orff's advocacy of teaching music by repeating ostinati (ostinatos Sp?) patterns. When I taught juveniles who primarily listened to rap or hip hop music, they were surprised when I was able to show them how Orff created O Fortuna, and I used Garage Band (an Apple program) to do it in front of them. They were shocked I could use "loops" to create a piece they had already heard. It should be mentioned that both Orff & Kodály used traditional notation systems to communicate their ideas.

    Michael
    I would like to add to Michael's excellent summary of various pedagogical methods, that Suzuki also uses traditional notation. The point of these different methods is not to ignore notation. They are structured approaches to learning music. Each has proponents and fine performers who have been introduced to music in their respective methods.
    Bill

    My home organ: Content M5800

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      #17
      I have friends who play rock music and they are totally not be able to read music, and they can't understand why is it necessary to read and write music because they just do everything based on hearing. Including learning a new piece written by others, and compose a piece that are original.

      I used to argue with my friend because he could not understand why can I read so well and yet can't play by ear. While I don't understand why can he play fine but have no idea what exactly notes he himself is playing.

      It became an argument because he thinks writing and reading are just unnecessary. Why bother if you can just play. And I was angry because I believe that a lot of things couldn't be done simply by hearing.
      Can anybody play the entire Bach the Art of Fugue by ear? I don't think so! Or maybe I am wrong!

      But when I rethink about it, the thing is just, my friend feels insecure as a musician because he can't read, while I feels insecure as a musician because I don't hear very well.
      Because me and him both have disadvantages, that's why we were fighting about what is more important.

      But the truth is there are a lot of people who can do both. A large number of professional musicians can both play by ear and do sight reading. For these people it's not even an issue whether hearing is more primarily or writing.

      But one thing I do find important is, if you want to compose (write) classical music, like Bach and Beethoven etc, it's much easier to learn how to do it when you can read music very well, because otherwise it would be hard to understand what the music theory text book is trying to tell you, and the theoriotical stuff are always written on paper. To develop seeing ears and hearing eyes are very crucial in learning classical music composition.

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        #18
        When I'm teaching (be it singing or a keyboard instrument), I try to use a variety of approaches including reading music and playing/singing by ear and many more. I don't quite understand why some people are trying to exclude one approach for another. When we're looking at Western European "classical" music, improvisation and playing by ear has been part of the education for a long time and seems to be have been neglected in some areas in recent decades. But that doesn't mean that education should only be this or that.

        There are, from my point of view and understanding, interesting parallels between children's linguistic and musical development. I was going to write my thesis about this many years ago but my professor said I should do this later as my PhD - it's still to be fully researched and written.

        Anyway, despite our organ/harmonium/piano keys tend to be black and white, our views and ideas of music education shouldn't.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Sarah Weizhen Xu View Post
          I have friends who play rock music and they are totally not be able to read music, and they can't understand why is it necessary to read and write music because they just do everything based on hearing. Including learning a new piece written by others, and compose a piece that are original.
          Sarah,

          The prisoners used to say the same thing when I was teaching them theory. That is, until I pointed out that they ALWAYS require someone to play, interpret, or teach it to them. A person who reads music notation needs none of that. With their method, they will always be dependent on someone else–to post a video, to play it first, or read the notes for them.

          Michael
          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
          • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

          Comment


            #20
            I would support Sarah's comment in post #17, and I would re-word it to say that a coin really only has value when there is something embossed on both sides. In music, your value increases when you can both read music and play by ear.

            I recognize that each of us is born with particular strengths, and that our training will likely lean toward either reading or listening. As someone who was raised to read, I now work on using my ears to create or replicate music. I'm not great, but I'm getting better. I'm starting to recognize and replicate certain harmonic progressions or melodic contours more easily.

            After reading all the comments so far, I'd say that anyone who wants to follow only one or the other path is doing themselves a great disservice. And whatever path they choose, they have no right to criticize anyone else's choice. However, anyone who chooses one path, completely dismissing and trashing the other, then suggests that we all follow in their footsteps... well, that is not right. We all have our own learning style.

            I do, however, feel sorry for the non-readers, because so much music is available only in print in one's particular environment. For example if I could only learn music that I heard, because of the environment I grew up in, I would NEVER have experienced some of the great music written by the masters. Yes, Beethoven probably rolled in his grave as I thrashed my way through his piano sonatas, but unless I had done that, I would have had NO exposure to his music. We had no recording of this music, nor did my parents tune the radio to stations that played this music.

            Likewise, I had books of hymn arrangements for piano that I worked on and learned. From playing this, I was able to apply what I learned from them to ordinary hymn-book hymns to create my own arrangements. I had no access to players who were that much better than me, and even if we could have afforded recordings, there were no stores in our area that offered anything like what I could read in the hymn-arrangement books.

            FLIPSIDE - I DO admire those people who can just sit down, with no music in front of them, and play either hymns or familiar pop-tunes to entertain others. Some of those performers will perform classical music, but not many, in my experience. Also, in my limited experience, anyone who does play 'classical music by ear' is really only replicating a few themes.

            Going back to "in favor of reading"... As has been mentioned, I'd like to know how many people could learn and perform Bach's Art of the Fugue or any of Beethoven or Mozart's piano sonatas without the music. And even if you did, you are actually learning someone else's interpretation. Having a good edition of the score could actually bring you closer to the composer's original intention, especially in terms of articulation, dynamics, ornamentation and specifics of chord structure and elaboration.

            Comment


            • myorgan
              myorgan commented
              Editing a comment
              Regeron,

              Originally posted by regeron
              I recognize that each of us is born with particular strengths, and that our training will likely lean toward either reading or listening. As someone who was raised to read, I now work on using my ears to create or replicate music. I'm not great, but I'm getting better. I'm starting to recognize and replicate certain harmonic progressions or melodic contours more easily.
              I resemble that remark. However, I find knowing how to read music first has been a double-edged sword when it comes to playing by ear. Some marvel at my ability to play certain things by ear, but they don't realize how unsatisfied I feel because I didn't use the right chord progression or inversion. On the other hand, my knowledge of theory helps me identify the specific content I can make better.
              Originally posted by andijah
              Anyway, despite our organ/harmonium/piano keys tend to be black and white, our views and ideas of music education shouldn't.
              Why? Seriously, Amen to that! While I seem one-sided, I actually teach using various techniques (some, I've already disclosed above).

              Michael

            #21
            Originally posted by regeron View Post
            I would support Sarah's comment in post #17, and I would re-word it to say that a coin really only has value when there is something embossed on both sides. In music, your value increases when you can both read music and play by ear.

            I recognize that each of us is born with particular strengths, and that our training will likely lean toward either reading or listening. As someone who was raised to read, I now work on using my ears to create or replicate music. I'm not great, but I'm getting better. I'm starting to recognize and replicate certain harmonic progressions or melodic contours more easily.

            After reading all the comments so far, I'd say that anyone who wants to follow only one or the other path is doing themselves a great disservice. And whatever path they choose, they have no right to criticize anyone else's choice. However, anyone who chooses one path, completely dismissing and trashing the other, then suggests that we all follow in their footsteps... well, that is not right. We all have our own learning style.

            I do, however, feel sorry for the non-readers, because so much music is available only in print in one's particular environment. For example if I could only learn music that I heard, because of the environment I grew up in, I would NEVER have experienced some of the great music written by the masters. Yes, Beethoven probably rolled in his grave as I thrashed my way through his piano sonatas, but unless I had done that, I would have had NO exposure to his music. We had no recording of this music, nor did my parents tune the radio to stations that played this music.

            Likewise, I had books of hymn arrangements for piano that I worked on and learned. From playing this, I was able to apply what I learned from them to ordinary hymn-book hymns to create my own arrangements. I had no access to players who were that much better than me, and even if we could have afforded recordings, there were no stores in our area that offered anything like what I could read in the hymn-arrangement books.

            FLIPSIDE - I DO admire those people who can just sit down, with no music in front of them, and play either hymns or familiar pop-tunes to entertain others. Some of those performers will perform classical music, but not many, in my experience. Also, in my limited experience, anyone who does play 'classical music by ear' is really only replicating a few themes.

            Going back to "in favor of reading"... As has been mentioned, I'd like to know how many people could learn and perform Bach's Art of the Fugue or any of Beethoven or Mozart's piano sonatas without the music. And even if you did, you are actually learning someone else's interpretation. Having a good edition of the score could actually bring you closer to the composer's original intention, especially in terms of articulation, dynamics, ornamentation and specifics of chord structure and elaboration.
            That is the problem. is one interpretation worth more than the other. The whole issue comes up when people argue the historical accuracy of tempo markings or if a pipe organ is historically arccurate to play Bach 🙄.

            i think people bog down themselves too much in the extremes. I admit i have and held some extreme positions in the past on topic like these.

            the solution is going to the result of us interpeting music in a way that allows for use of modern tools but at the same time not loose sight of what is written.

            Instruments:
            22/8 Button accordion.

            Comment


              #22
              I will revert to something I said earlier in this thread. The best method of instruction to use is the one that conveys the greatest amount of information each individual student. Where it becomes unwieldy is when you're in a classroom situation. In that case, I've found those who are left-brained can generally analyze the dickens out of any method of instruction, but people who are right-brained are sometimes less able to analyze another method that doesn't work for them.

              Michael
              Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
              • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
              • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
              • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

              Comment

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