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Identify these hymns possibly?

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  • Identify these hymns possibly?

    Sometimes I come across some pieces of music I really like and want to find the scores for, but many times as is the case with these, there is no identification on them at all.

    Curious if anyone can specifially identify any of these pieces for me enough that I can find the printed music:

    Catholic
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJ0XxkcyFg

    UK Presbyterian
    https://youtu.be/tcoHbLibv5c?t=7m28s

    UK Presbyterian "The Lord is my shepherd" but no version I've found matches the music:
    https://youtu.be/tcoHbLibv5c?t=10m18s

  • #2
    Originally posted by Sculptor2 View Post
    Curious if anyone can specifially identify any of these pieces for me enough that I can find the printed music:

    Catholic
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJ0XxkcyFg
    Since I Have Been Redeemed--http://www.hymnary.org/text/i_have_a...ng_since_i_hav
    Originally posted by Sculptor2 View Post
    The piece at the end during the destruction is And Can It Be, That I Should Gain--http://www.hymnary.org/text/and_can_..._i_should_gain.

    Originally posted by Sculptor2 View Post
    UK Presbyterian "The Lord is my shepherd" but no version I've found matches the music:
    https://youtu.be/tcoHbLibv5c?t=10m18s
    I could not find a version that matches this music either, but you could check with the website I referenced above.

    Hope this helps.

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

    Comment


    • #3
      I am familiar with tune name SAGINA, to which "And Can It Be" is sung. That short clip at the end was a highly modified version. The Hymn is available in the current UMC Hymnal, #363. My church had not used that Hymn for a long time, but some years ago a Director came to us from the UK to conduct a recital, and he included a choral version of that Hymn. We liked it so much that we then discovered it was in our Hymnal and we've used is several times since then. The text is very powerful, and supported beautifully by the tune. Try it--you'll like it.

      David

      Comment


      • #4
        "Ye gates lift up your heads ..." is to the tune ST GEORGE'S EDINBURGH. Have a look at: http://www.hymnary.org/text/ye_gates..._heads_on_high

        "The Lord's my shepherd" is to the tune ORLINGTON. Again, have a look at: http://www.hymnary.org/tune/orlington

        I guess it's the Scot in me who recognised the tunes.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Chrisglass View Post
          "Ye gates lift up your heads ..." is to the tune ST GEORGE'S EDINBURGH. Have a look at: http://www.hymnary.org/text/ye_gates..._heads_on_high

          "The Lord's my shepherd" is to the tune ORLINGTON. Again, have a look at: http://www.hymnary.org/tune/orlington

          I guess it's the Scot in me who recognised the tunes.
          Chris,

          Welcome to the Forum. That's what I like about the Forum--when someone from one area of the U.S. (New England) doesn't get it, but someone else from Texas does. Then the pieces we in the U.S. miss, y'all in Scotland weigh in. Needless to say, you probably have many more familiar with the Presbyterian liturgy than we do over here with all the Baptists and Methodists, etc. Still, we get the full picture in less than a day or two.

          Thanks again for your help.

          Michael

          P.S. David, I agree the tune, SAGINA was definitely an arrangement, but still recognizable.
          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
          • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

          Comment


          • #6
            I have several CDs of Hymns performed by choirs in the UK, and many of the texts are sung to different tunes than are normal here in the US. (And I do like some of them better.)

            David

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks for the 'welcome' Michael. Must confess I've been lurking around the forum for a while but was delighted when I found a question I could answer. It IS great that folk from around the world can share what they know.

              Glad to help Sculptor2. Both tunes are from the old Scot's Psalter tradition and would normally meet the good congregational hymn singing that you like. The St George's Edinburgh / Ye gates is traditionally sung in the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) at Communion services as the 'elements' are processed into the church. Well sung, with a good men's chorus to ask the "But who ..." questions at the first and second verses, it becomes very uplifting, but, as you say, you do need to know how to jump back and forwards through the music.

              Actually, I'm not a Scot's Presbyterian but one of the very few Methodists, but when you're brought up in Presbyterian context and you enjoy hymn singing you learn quite a lot that's not in your own hymn books.

              I became particularly aware of international tune traditions when I worked with an American Methodist minister. She and I had annual disagreements about the 'correct' tune to "It came upon the midnight clear", our congregation insisting that this rather up-market performance was correct https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtV477Cqni0

              If you need any more Scottish/British perspective answers I'll do my best.

              Chris

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Chrisglass View Post
                I became particularly aware of international tune traditions when I worked with an American Methodist minister. She and I had annual disagreements about the 'correct' tune to "It came upon the midnight clear", our congregation insisting that this rather up-market performance was correct https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtV477Cqni0
                Some US hymnals compromise on a few hymns. My 1966 Methodist hymnal offers the UK preferred tune to "Rock of Ages" as an alternative, and the 1982 Episcopal hymnal prints "O little town of Bethlehem" with FOREST GREEN. (I think it might offer NOEL/GERARD as an alternative to CAROL for "It came upon" too, but don't quote me.)

                Comment


                • #9
                  The old 1933 Methodist Hymnal had 3 tunes for "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name": MILES LANE; DIADEM; and CORONATION. In that Hymnal they had the same number and were on consecutive pages as "First Tune", "Second Tune", and "Third Tune". The current UMC Hymnal only has the last 2 tunes (with different consecutive numbers)--MILES LANE does not appear anywhere in the book.

                  A lot of the tunes used in the UK don't appear in the UMC Hymnal at all, and when they do it is for a different text.

                  David

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    And David has just proved the 'transatlantic' point. The last three British Methodist Hymnbooks (1933, 1983 & 2011) set "All Hail the power of Jesus Name" to MILES LANE and DIADEM but I'd never actually heard CORONATION before a few minutes ago - I have a copy of the 1989 United Methodist Hymnal. It would be interesting if someone were to research the tunes sung by the early Methodists, which I'm sure were the same both sides of the Atlantic, and see where and when divergence developed.

                    FOREST GREEN would be my 'normal' choice for "O little town of Bethlehem" and I wonder if the reason we use NOEL for "It came upon ..." is because it was a traditional tune which was altered and arranged by Sir Arthur Sullivan.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      We sing "O Little Town of Bethlehem" to ST. LOUIS and "It Came...." to CAROL (not very specific, that). The Hymn that really stood out to me as different was "Love Divine, All Loves Excelling"--we sing it to the tune BEECHER and the Brits sing it to BLAENWERN. (Fond as I am of BEECHER, I've heard it so often that I find the BLAENWERN a refreshing change.) I note it is sung by some places to HYFRYDOL, but I reserve that tune for other texts.

                      The 1989 edition of the UMC Hymnal is the current version. I also have the 2 previous editions: the 1939 and 1966--both compiled prior to the merger to become the UMC. We lost several good tunes when the 1989 edition was formulated--MILES LANE, of course, and one of my favorites BRYN CALFARIA ("Lo, He Comes With Clouds Descending") and even that text was expunged. When the 1939 edition was abandoned, we lost another rousing Hymn "Lift High the Triumph Cross Today", a stirring Palm Sunday Hymn to a Finnish cavalry march!). I will give the 1989 edition one kudo, though--they restored the original harmony to CWM RHONDDA that had the arpeggios to the 7th in the Bass and Alto lines that had been eliminated from the arrangement in the 1966 edition.

                      The UMC is supposedly in the process of again revising the Hymnal. I wonder what horrors they will wreak this time.

                      David
                      Last edited by davidecasteel; 09-26-2016, 02:55 PM. Reason: Some corrections

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by davidecasteel View Post
                        The old 1933 Methodist Hymnal had 3 tunes for "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name": MILES LANE; DIADEM; and CORONATION. In that Hymnal they had the same number and were on consecutive pages as "First Tune", "Second Tune", and "Third Tune". The current UMC Hymnal only has the last 2 tunes (with different consecutive numbers)--MILES LANE does not appear anywhere in the book.

                        A lot of the tunes used in the UK don't appear in the UMC Hymnal at all, and when they do it is for a different text.

                        David
                        66 hymnal has CORONATION, DIADEM and MILES' LANE in that order.

                        Originally posted by Chrisglass View Post
                        And David has just proved the 'transatlantic' point. The last three British Methodist Hymnbooks (1933, 1983 & 2011) set "All Hail the power of Jesus Name" to MILES LANE and DIADEM but I'd never actually heard CORONATION before a few minutes ago - I have a copy of the 1989 United Methodist Hymnal. It would be interesting if someone were to research the tunes sung by the early Methodists, which I'm sure were the same both sides of the Atlantic, and see where and when divergence developed.

                        FOREST GREEN would be my 'normal' choice for "O little town of Bethlehem" and I wonder if the reason we use NOEL for "It came upon ..." is because it was a traditional tune which was altered and arranged by Sir Arthur Sullivan.
                        We just had "All hail the power..." in this week's service, and it was with CORONATION.

                        I wouldn't be surprised if you're right about Sullivan being the reason NOEL is the more popular tune there. I actually like it better than CAROL, probably because here, CAROL is extremely overplayed.

                        Originally posted by davidecasteel View Post
                        We sing "O Little Town of Bethlehem" to ST. LOUIS and "It Came...." to CAROL (not very specific, that). The Hymn that really stood out to me as different was "Love Divine, All Loves Excelling"--we sing it to the tune BEECHER and the Brits sing it to BLAENWERN. (Fond as I am of BEECHER, I've heard it so often that I find the BLAENWERN a refreshing change.) I note it is sung by some places to HYFRYDOL, but I reserve that tune for other texts.
                        Yeah. I like to keep that for just "Come, thou long-expected Jesus" (which seems to be more commonly set to STUTTGART outside the Methodist tradition).

                        Originally posted by davidecasteel View Post
                        The 1989 edition of the UMC Hymnal is the current version. I also have the 2 previous editions: the 1939 and 1966--both compiled prior to the merger to become the UMC. We lost several good tunes when the 1989 edition was formulated--MILES LANE, of course, and one of my favorites BRYN CALFARIA ("Lo, He Comes With Clouds Descending") and even that text was expunged. When the 1939 edition was abandoned, we lost another rousing Hymn "Lift High the Triumph Cross Today", a stirring Palm Sunday Hymn to a Finnish cavalry march!). I will give the 1989 edition one kudo, though--they restored the original harmony to CWM RHONDDA that had the arpeggios to the 7th in the Bass and Alto lines that had been eliminated from the arrangement in the 1966 edition.
                        I need to find a copy of the 35/39 hymnal. :/

                        For my hymnal project, I'm using BRYN CALFARIA twice - for the same two hymns in which it is used in the 1966 hymnal. I couldn't use the 1966 arrangement for copyright reasons, though, so I pulled an arrangement out of the English Hymnal of 1906 (so perhaps Vaughan Williams?). The other one is "Look, ye saints, the sight is glorious".

                        I don't know what you might mean by the "arpeggios", but the 1989 version adds a little extra backing after the first "feed me till I want no more..." in the alto and bass lines? That's literally the only difference I can see between the two.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          burrico, that "backing" is what I meant--where the altos and basses arpeggiate to the 7th with their second "want no more". The earlier edition had removed that tidbit, which (AFAIC) ruined the Welsh nature of the tune. (I'm not Welsh, but I do a fair pronunciation of CWM RHONDDA and the town Llandudno, where our church choir sang a joint concert with a Welsh male chorus in 2011.) And yes, our earlier Hymnal had both your texts set to BRYN CALFARIA, and I was fond of both hymns. (Do you see a pattern here? I am fond of the old Welsh tunes! However, the current PTB appear to believe that they are too complicated or have too wide a range for modern congregations. How did we ever sing them in the past?)

                          David

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                          • #14
                            ...and yet they replaced a few simple enough arrangements of old Lutheran tunes with Bach's more overblown arrangements. Kinda makes their reasoning ring hollow, dontcha think?

                            As an example one can compare CHRIST LAG IN TODESBANDEN - 438 in the 1966 hymnal and 319 in teh 1989 - there's no question that the replacement arrangement is far more complicated than the old one!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by davidecasteel View Post
                              The Hymn that really stood out to me as different was "Love Divine, All Loves Excelling"--we sing it to the tune BEECHER and the Brits sing it to BLAENWERN. (Fond as I am of BEECHER, I've heard it so often that I find the BLAENWERN a refreshing change.)

                              David
                              In the UK it was normally sung to Stainer's "Love divine" until quite recently - at least in the Anglican church.

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