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Identify these hymns possibly?

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  • #16
    Random: the 1966 Methodist hymnal sets "Lord, whose love through humble service" to BEECHER, and the 1989 switches to BEACH SPRING. Have to say I find the latter a better choice, though I thought it was a bit odd at first.

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    • #17
      I'm beginning to find that I surround myself with hymnbooks before I open this thread.

      The "Love Divine" tune development has always interested me.
      I was 'brought up' with the British 1933 book which offered LOVE DIVINE, the Zundel version which is the tune you've called BEECHER, with BITHYNIA as an alternative, but our organist occasionally also played HYFRYDOL.

      The 1983 hymnbook, clearly trying to "move us on" suggested BLAENWERN, LOVE DIVINE (the Stainer version so we'd fit in the with Anglicans), WESTMINSTER (SACRED HARMONY) and then suggested that HYFRYDOL was another alternative. By that time I was the organist and while I'd a soft spot for the Stainer LOVE DIVINE and would initially sometimes play HYFRYDOL it became clear that the congregational preference was for BLAENWERN. I didn't always give in to congregational preference but on this occasion I was content to.

      The 2011 book offers only BLAENWERN, so I guess our 'musical leaders' think the battle's over.
      I'd like to kid myself that 'they' followed my practice but given some of the other atrocities in our 'new' book I conclude my preferences had nothing to do with their decisions.

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      • #18
        Here's a question--do you ever change the phrasing from the hymnal version? Our pastor wanted to sing Blessed Quietness one Sunday, but we had to convince him not many in the congregation knew it. He should wait until the music leadership group worked it out. So, we met and began working on it can came up with some questions. They all deal with the phrasing of the 2nd stave in the version mentioned above:
        1. Should the 2nd line be sung He a-bides with | us for-ev-er, or He a-bides with us | for-e-e-ver (Sorry, it's the best I can do in writing only)?
        2. Ditto with the word un-be-lief v.2, Holy Ghost v.3, and streams of life v.4
        The way the melody is written, the 2nd beat of that measure is sustained, and I am loathe to give a quarter note to the word with, or the syllables un-be-lief, Ho-ly, or streams of, etc. I always thought it was poor practice to sustain the middle or a word, or on a wide sound like an E.

        Personally, we just changed the phrasing to match the music, but I'm curious if there's a legitimate argument for the other side (other than, That's the way it is written.)

        Help?

        Michael
        Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
        • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
        • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
        • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

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        • #19
          Good puzzle, Michael!

          I was told that, when in doubt, try to extend vowel sounds, like 'aaah' and 'oooh' as they (should) sound more pleasant, but that often easier said than done.
          Yes, it's difficult to writing rhythm, but I'll have a shot too. (I found it easier to think of six beats in the bar.)

          I agree that the 2nd verse should be: He a | bi - ides wi - th us for | e - e - ve-er
          but I think is 'sounds' better as : He a | bides with u - us fo - or | e - e -

          thus extending vowel sounds.

          I think that 'unbelief and' 'should' be |u - un be - e lief and| but I think it 'fits' better as |un - be - li - ef a - and| giving two 'beats' to the "and", which I'm not totally happy about but if it's a choice of a long "un" and a drawn out "belief" the I feel the short "un" is more natural and the drawn out "lief" allows a emphasis in the word's meaning.

          It's using the same 'feeling' that would make me encourage: |Ho - ly Gho-ost i - is| (thus 'evening out' Holy and Ghost as opposed to a three beat "Holy" and one beat "Ghost" (my 6 beats a bar).

          Finally, it's how you 'do' "perfect". I'd suggest |pe - er fe - ect hab - i | That allows you to relish the "perfect".

          Hope that helps somewhat. C.

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          • #20
            Chris,

            Thank you for the response. Yes, it does help. I checked older versions, and the piece I linked to is in its relatively original form. It makes me wonder if the composer missed the potential issues, was not aware they were potential issues, or didn't care. Either way, I think that's why the piece is not as popular as many other hymns. It's too bad, because some of those words are quite nice.

            Michael
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

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            • #21
              Can you parse the real meter and find another tune that matches it?

              David

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              • #22
                Originally posted by davidecasteel View Post
                Can you parse the real meter and find another tune that matches it?
                David,

                Unfortunately, the tune is what people know--it's just fitting the words provided to the tune. On many hymns (i.e. How Great Thou Art), people have made up their own rhythm for years. For example, on the chorus of How Great Thou Art, it is written as straight 8th notes on ...my Savior, God to Thee..., however, when people sing the chorus, they turn the rhythm into a dotted 8th and a 16th. I have found this method of singing those notes throughout the nation. I would imagine that method of performance came from the Billy Graham crusades or something like that where the nation as a whole began reproducing the alternate rhythm.

                In some localities, it is common to hold out the first 3 notes of the chorus of Blessed Assurance--This--is--my--sto-ry, this is my song. Different hymns have other anomalies that are not written, yet they are understood in certain locales, while in various geographic regions of the U.S. they are unknown. Another example is the hold at the end of the hymn Living for Jesus. At the end of the chorus some regions sing, One life to live------------, while others continue through without even so much as a breath.

                To alter or not to alter--that is the question.

                Michael
                Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by davidecasteel View Post
                  Can you parse the real meter and find another tune that matches it?

                  David
                  It's 8.7.8.7.5.5.7.5.5.7 which isn't a particularly common metre.

                  I can only find one hymn and, funnily enough, it's the one we're discussing. Hymnary.org have only two suitable tunes - both linked to these words but the original tune, BLESSED QUIETNESS by Marshall, is clearly the most used.

                  I guess it's as Michael said - you have to work out how it's going to be sung and then live (confidently) with it, even if it's not totally correct. It's so true that there are entrenched singing traditions which don't 'match the music'. I used to encounter a 'disagreement' with the congregation over the rhythm at one point in "Tell me the old, old story".

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chrisglass View Post
                    I used to encounter a 'disagreement' with the congregation over the rhythm at one point in "Tell me the old, old story".
                    Do tell! Enquiring minds need to know.

                    Michael
                    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by myorgan View Post
                      On many hymns (i.e. How Great Thou Art), people have made up their own rhythm for years. For example, on the chorus of How Great Thou Art, it is written as straight 8th notes on ...my Savior, God to Thee..., however, when people sing the chorus, they turn the rhythm into a dotted 8th and a 16th. I have found this method of singing those notes throughout the nation.
                      It's common enough that playing it straight (the 1966 Methodist hymnal writes it as 4 8th notes, as you describe) seems odd to me. When I did my own arrangement, I marked it as a dotted quarter and an eighth for "Sa-vior", then two quarter notes.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by buricco View Post
                        It's common enough that playing it straight (the 1966 Methodist hymnal writes it as 4 8th notes, as you describe) seems odd to me. When I did my own arrangement, I marked it as a dotted quarter and an eighth for "Sa-vior", then two quarter notes.
                        I think you can thank (or condemn) George Beverly Shea for the altered rhythm of "How Great Thou Art". He, of course, was the main Song Leader for the Billy Graham Crusades for dozens of years. FWIW, the current (1989) UMC Hymnal has even 8th notes for both places in the Refrain; but it does have a fermata over the last "great" (before the final Thou art). I suspect that the Hymnals all still have the original even notes because of copyright restrictions.

                        David

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                        • #27
                          Which raises the question: How true is the claim that the tune is actually an arrangement of a folk song? If so, then one can do a rearrangement that is significantly enough different (as I attempted to do) and circumvent the problem.

                          While I haven't released it, I used a different set of lyrics, a straighter translation of the Swedish hymn that "How Great Thou Art" purports to be adapted from (but with an altered chorus that falls somewhere in between the two).

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by davidecasteel View Post
                            I think you can thank (or condemn) George Beverly Shea for the altered rhythm of "How Great Thou Art".
                            Or Cliff Barrows.
                            Originally posted by buricco View Post
                            Which raises the question: How true is the claim that the tune is actually an arrangement of a folk song?
                            [snip]
                            While I haven't released it, I used a different set of lyrics, a straighter translation of the Swedish hymn that "How Great Thou Art" purports to be adapted from (but with an altered chorus that falls somewhere in between the two).
                            A translation falls into the abyss between copyright, and adaptation/arrangement. Personally, I would think a translation would fall into a different category entirely. The person on the Forum who knows more about that would be Dr. Ben from Quebec, but I haven't seen him on the Forum lately. Maybe we've just been missing each other.

                            Michael
                            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                            • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Said translation, if it makes a difference, is that of Gustav Johnson from 1925 ("O mighty God, when I behold the wonder..."), predating the more familiar "How Great Thou Art" by about a quarter century.

                              My source, a PDF from "The Cyber Hymnal", gives an arrangement of the tune not unlike the familiar one, but differently harmonized.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Under U.S. law and under the International Berne Convention (to which almost all countries are signatories, with the notable exception of China), a musical composition or song lyrics are automatically under copyright from the moment they are put into tangible form (basically when they are more than an idea in the composer's head). The period of copyright depends on when the work was created. Currently, it is the life of the composer plus 70, 95 or 120 years, depending on the specifics of the case. For works composed before January 1, 1978, different terms apply. However, ALL works composed before January 1, 1923, are now in the public domain. Some after that date may be in the public domain but a verification would have to be made. Copyright covers not only the original composition but also all "derivative" works based on the original: translations, choreographs, screen or stage plays, musical arrangements
                                -----------------
                                Johannus Opus 1100 (ca. 1990)

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