Organ or Piano? (Musical example attached)

[Steve Freides]

I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I'd like opinions. This is apparently the anthem of choice every year for Ash Wednesday, where we do a joint service with another couple of churches, hosted at our church.

From the way the accompaniment starts, I thought organ, but after playing through more than the first line, I realized it's probably intended for piano.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

-S-

[Leisesturm]

I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I'd like opinions. This is apparently the anthem of choice every year for Ash Wednesday, where we do a joint service with another couple of churches, hosted at our church.

From the way the accompaniment starts, I thought organ, but after playing through more than the first line, I realized it's probably intended for piano.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

-S-

I don't know about anyone else but the music does not open for me. But if it's THE "God So Loved the World (Stainer) it is intended for organ but can of course be done with piano. Or (gasp) choir accapella.

[Steve Freides]

I don't know about anyone else but the music does not open for me. But if it's THE "God So Loved the World (Stainer) it is intended for organ but can of course be done with piano. Or (gasp) choir accapella.

Can you explain, please? The first line - 5 measures - has a stems-down part that looks like it's intended for pedals, but then that line just disappears, and not all the subsequent music seems suited to having anything played on pedals.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

-S-

[myorgan]

From the way the accompaniment starts, I thought organ, but after playing through more than the first line, I realized it's probably intended for piano.

Steve,

The scan was a bit small to see, but I think I saw enough. I understand your quandry. I believe it would be considered an organ piece, but the arrangement you have appears to have been edited for piano as well. Your interpretation of the introduction measures and the pedal part for the organ are correct (ref. stem direction). Also notice the last measure or two on the 2^nd page. That said, however. . . .

In college, part of my Service Playing course was taking choir anthems and preparing them for the organ. Generally, the anthems were written for piano, and I would need to adapt them to the organ. On the other hand, with classic pieces like this, many were specifically written for organ, and yes, they were written in a pianistic style. I'm not sure if the composers actually knew how to write for organ, whether it was a specific style or not, or what the deal was with those pieces, but it would be expected to play them on the organ.

For your situation and your professed level of expertise, I would suggest that perhaps you change some of the 8^th notes to create block chords, and the accompaniment would still remain within the character of the piece. As it is, the piece is often sung with tremendous rubato, so running 8^th notes kinda get in the way of that--or if the accompanist is very good, (s)he can help interpret the tempo variations for the choir.

Either way, you will probably have a good time with the piece. Have fun with it!

Michael

[regeron]

The original is for SATB a capella.

The arrangement that started this thread is just that - an arrangement, probably written to simplify the piece for a less experienced or capable choir. This would explain the piano part (to keep people in tune), and the unison and 2-part writing (to make learning faster and performing easier).

As far as organ or piano, it looks like a piano part. If played on the organ, it would be imitating a cello or viola doing arpeggios. You would want to use a stop that doesn't have a lot of initial attack (sometimes called 'chiff'). You want smooth, really smooth.

[Steve Freides]

The original is for SATB a capella.

The arrangement that started this thread is just that - an arrangement, probably written to simplify the piece for a less experienced or capable choir. This would explain the piano part (to keep people in tune), and the unison and 2-part writing (to make learning faster and performing easier).

As far as organ or piano, it looks like a piano part. If played on the organ, it would be imitating a cello or viola doing arpeggios. You would want to use a stop that doesn't have a lot of initial attack (sometimes called 'chiff'). You want smooth, really smooth.

I would like to see the original - I'll check in our choir library to see if they have it that way. Seeing the original would be helpful in this situation.

I find it unsatisfactory, given that the part might be played by piano or organ, to have the accompaniment part written so that it looks like an organ part for five bars then stops - if the music was 16 years old, I might complain go the publisher.

-S-

[regeron]

Hi Steve,

Where did you get the music for the thumbnail that you included in the first post? When I enlarge it, the small print is blurry, but it seems to indicate whether they had written the keyboard part for either piano or organ right at the beginning of that part. (Or does it just say "Accomp"?) It looks to be more of a piano part. If you play it on the organ, use the first few measures as an example, and continue to hold the first, lowest note for the duration of the measure, or until the harmony changes.

It should state copyright date of the arrangement and publisher name at the bottom of the page. The arrangement might only be 16 years old, though the original is older.

The arrangement has added introduction and interludes which are not part of the original. Again, many arrangers have taken challenging classical pieces and given some of the difficult work to the accompanist, so that choirs (who wouldn't otherwise be able to do it) can include it in their repertoire. It is also an opportunity for a modern, second- or third-rate composer/arranger to make money. These kinds of pieces are sometimes included in cantatas for the volunteer choir, giving them access to classical pieces or hymn arrangements that would otherwise remain out of their reach.

To see the original score, here it is on 2 staves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLvthjDEUnQ

And here it is on 4 staves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5p2F7P8uTQ

Or pick one of these images:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=stain...w=1224&bih=714

[Leisesturm]

The "classic" edition of this work is the octavo published by E.C. Schirmer that has been in every Protestant church choir's library that I have ever served. The 'accompaniment' duplicates the voice parts and may actually indicate "for rehearsal only" but I cannot remember. It's been awhile since I've been around any choir that would let me program this particular anthem. Anywho... having had a look at this arrangement (that is what it is, regeron is absolutely correct, as usual) I would play it on the piano, and I don't see any ambiguity there. That's a piano score. Period. You 'could' play it on an organ, in much the way that you could play "When In Our Music God Is Glorified" (Engleberg) on a piano. The writing is for organ but music publishers have very lax enforcement policies. You can pretty much do what you want, as long as you've paid for it.

As for Stainer. I made the initial call that the accompaniment was for organ because Stainer would not have written for anything else in a church anthem context! Even today I know of Episcopal sanctuaries that do not have pianos. It doesn't matter how small or unassuming the organ might be it will be the only keyboard instrument used in that kind of worship service and the scoring of anthems with keyboard accompaniment reflected that expectation. To the present time in fact. I'm pretty sure there isn't a single piano in sight at St. Thomas NYC or St. Bartholemew. They might roll one in for a specific purpose now and then but as a general practice. Oawgan.

[davidecasteel]

I'm sure my church has copies of it, and I could sing it from memory, but the likelihood of it ever being sung these days is very slim. 95% of the anthems sung by our choir today were composed after 2000, even though we have a library of 1000 wonderful pieces by the Old Masters. The Choir Director does resurrect one every so often, I think just to keep me from jumping ship to a nearby Anglican or Episcopal church (he needs all his tenors).

David

[Peterboroughdiapason]

Ugh! What a disgusting travesty of Stainer that is. Nothing like the original - must be considered a completely different piece. Not the same notes, not the same mood and with that silly and inappropriate accompaniment! As far as I'm concerned, this should be avoided at all costs and I would refuse to have anything to do with it.

As for the accompaniment, it's for piano with sustaining pedal from the look of it. Could be played perfectly well on the organ with held pedal notes.

The "Classic" edition is the original Novello one - you can see it here: http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/u...ed_Stainer.pdf

Unaccompanied, of course, as the copy says. There is a keyboard reduction for rehearsal use only. Here's a link to my favourite performance - so expressive, though some might feel it overdone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzk5K-p6ScM

Why didn't they write a new piece rather than bastardizing Stainer's?

[Steve Freides]

Hi Steve,

Where did you get the music for the thumbnail that you included in the first post? When I enlarge it, the small print is blurry, but it seems to indicate whether they had written the keyboard part for either piano or organ right at the beginning of that part. (Or does it just say "Accomp"?) It looks to be more of a piano part. If you play it on the organ, use the first few measures as an example, and continue to hold the first, lowest note for the duration of the measure, or until the harmony changes.

I scanned in the first two pages of the music I have - that's where the attached picture comes from. I don't scan things often from my computer - perhaps I didn't select a high enough resolution. The arranger is one Benjamin Harlan.

I appreciate knowing that the original was/is SATB and will now go about looking at the links people here have kindly provided and educate myself a little about this piece. I'm sure knowing how it sounds as SATB unaccompanied will enable me to make a better informed decision as to how to accompany it in this version, a choice that isn't mine to make.

FWIW, at the top of the first page - this may have gotten cut off in my scan - it says

For 2-Part* or SAB, accompanied**

and at the bottom

*Please note: For a two-part arrangement, omit the alto line. Any combination of voices may sing the soprano line (S, SA or ST) and any combination of voices may sing the men's line (B, TB or AB).

**ChoirTrax CD available (HL08742622)
Instrumental Pak including score and parts for chamber orchestra available (HL08742621)

[Steve Freides]

Ugh! What a disgusting travesty of Stainer that is. Nothing like the original - must be considered a completely different piece. Not the same notes, not the same mood and with that silly and inappropriate accompaniment! As far as I'm concerned, this should be avoided at all costs and I would refuse to have anything to do with it.

Having just watched and listened to one of the YouTube links provided to the original, I agree completely. I do quite a bit of arranging (not a short story, and therefore for another time) and this falls into that unhappy place between arranging and an original composition. The original is lovely, at least to these ears who haven't heard it before just now.

As for the accompaniment, it's for piano with sustaining pedal from the look of it. Could be played perfectly well on the organ with held pedal notes.

I will spend more time with it today and make that decision.

What I would really like to do is play the SATB original on the organ and have the choir sing the original SA parts and create a men's part.

The "Classic" edition is the original Novello one - you can see it here: http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/u...ed_Stainer.pdf

I've printed this out, and will enter it in Sibelius on my computer for future.

Unaccompanied, of course, as the copy says. There is a keyboard reduction for rehearsal use only. Here's a link to my favourite performance - so expressive, though some might feel it overdone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzk5K-p6ScM

A lovely, heart-felt performance.

Why didn't they write a new piece rather than bastardizing Stainer's?

That's a very good question.

-S-

[regeron]

One of the good things that comes of this kind of arranging is that those choirs and churches who would NEVER consider doing the original could be introduced to it via this arrangement. One can hope that at least some of them would be so captured by it's beauty that someone would explore a bit further and bring back the original. I realize that that would only happen in a very few cases, but at least it's a small step. Or perhaps some young musician will be inspired to rise above the general musical level of that environment.

When I was a youth, I had a book of hymn arrangements by a well-known, American evangelical pianist. I later realized that the best parts of his arrangements were stolen from classical piano concertos and sonatas. In between these bits, he inserted very simple (banal?) arrangements of favorite gospel hymns. He never once acknowledged who had written the good parts - since those composers were long dead, the music wasn't under copyright. Once I found that out, I burned the book. In it's place, I bought the real piano repertoire and have never looked back.

[Peterboroughdiapason]

I've printed this out, and will enter it in Sibelius on my computer for future.

-S-

There are a couple of Sibelius versions on CPDL so you could download one and tweak it as you like.

[Steve Freides]

There are a couple of Sibelius versions on CPDL so you could download one and tweak it as you like.

Very good to know - I will have a look.

Thanks.

-S-