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A question on learning the organ

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  • #31
    I am not arrogant!
    you were actuallu very rude when you told me that my understanding of music was wrong.
    I hate when people tell me I am wrong when in fact I am right.
    You say that calling a chord Sus like I did is wrong but my teacher who is really good at the organ also agrees with this. You were wrong to tell me I shouldn't call it a sus. People think of music different ways. This is why we missunderstood eachother. You refused to understand the harmonic series.


    • #32
      Henrik, I've said it before and I'm saying it again: you seem to be happy with your teacher and the information you get from her/him. What's your motivation then to start a discussion like this and lash out at everyone who has a different opinion?
      This is not a rhetorical question. I really want to know.


      • #33

        In reading the quote below, I may know what you are referring to and where the misunderstanding is coming from.

        Originally posted by henrik.hank View Post
        . . . . I repeat again. when you play the E note you will hear the harmonic series. If you really listen you can hear a suspension when you add the note A and C#. . . .
        Based on the quote above, you are referring to the fact that when an E note is played there are overtones (partials) that sound (at less volume). You are correct in saying that these partials "clash" with other notes in chord. In fact, these overtones depart from whole multiples of the fundamental frequency from the harmonic series. This "clashing" of tones in a chord is compounded by the fact the in equal temperament, the only pure intervals are octaves. (However, the fourth and fifth are almost pure.) I think that we may be using the same term "suspension" in different ways. This is probably due to a difference in terminology between your country/language and my country/language. You may be using the term suspension to refer to the clashing of the partials and other notes in the chord. In my country/language, the term that is used for this "clashing" of partials and other chord tones is inharmonicity. In my country/language, the term suspension is used to describe the suspended fourth (or second). We call it suspended because the resolution of the chord is suspended (or delayed).

        Here is an example term suspension as we use it in my country. Look at the last measure of the first line of the hymn "Now Thank We All Our God." (The tune is NUN DANKET.) In that measure, the first chord is a Bb7sus, resolving to a Bb7, and the final chord in the first line is Eb.

        I hope this clarifies the issue.

        Wishing you the best in your study of the organ.


        Currently own: Roland Atelier AT-90, Yamaha 115D, Roland DP-90SE, Yamaha PSR-S910

        YouTube Channel


        • #34
          Originally posted by henrik.hank View Post
          The harmonic series is the same in all countries. We have no special kind of psysics here. Sounds are the same here as in all countries.
          I repeat again. when you play the E note you will hear the harmonic series. If you really listen you can hear a suspension when you add the note A and C#. You guys need ear training! Even I understand this! It is kinda easy to understand!
          and the E/G# also have some suspension.
          Yes, the harmonic series is the same in all countries.
          Yes, if you play an E, then add an A and C#, you will hear an A chord. However, you were talking about playing an E, then adding an A and a B. That is different.

          Paul Hindemith, "Craft of Musical Composition" Part I, pg. 68 - "Interval Roots"... "Numerous experiments have convinced me that the feeling that one tone of an interval has more importance than the other is just as innate as the ability to judge intervals exactly -- everyone hears the lower tone of a fifth as the principal tone."

          He goes on to say that in the interval of a fourth, we hear the upper note as the root, based on the harmonic series.

          When you have an E with both an A and a B above, i.e. a fourth and a fifth, the fifth is the stronger interval; we hear E as the root and B as the fifth. That makes an E-A-B chord a modified E chord; we don't know if it's major or minor until we hear whether the G is natural or sharp. It is not an A chord.

          If you had an E with an A and some kind of C above and no B, the fourth (E-A) would be heard as the guiding interval to make A the root and E the fifth.

          The presence of the B precludes this chord being heard as an A chord.

          We are talking of a simple tune with simple chords. We are not talking jazz.


          • #35
            Henrik. Some things are subjective and open to individual interpretation. Some things are not. Flute tone does NOT have a harmonic series. Flute tone is pure fundamental. Period. A chord is not a harmonic series. Harmonic series has only one meaning: the series of overtones above a Fundamental that identifies the instrument producing the sound. More complex sounds than Flute sounds will have a harmonic series present but no human, not even you hears more than the Fundamental as an actual pitch. The rest of the series (overtones) are what allow you to know that you are listening to a violin vs an oboe that are each playing 'Middle C'. You do not hear the individual pitches of the harmonic series of each instrument. I don't want to debate this.

            You have a very accommodating teacher. I'm not sure how hard I would work at changing the opinion of someone as set in their ways as yourself either. But eventually (maybe) you may find yourself in musical company not disposed to humoring your idiosyncratic way of looking at things. They call music "the Universal Language". It really is. I was puzzled when it was suggested that maybe Harmonic Analysis is different in your country than in the U.S. or the UK. Of course not. And you are incorrect. And your teacher is incorrect in calling A/E an Esus. But as long as the two of you keep your incorrect assumptions between the two of you who are we to criticize. But please, don't come here and try to get us to go along with incorrect facts. The terms and conventions of Music Notation and Harmony and Harmonic Analysis are what they are. If you don't like them that does not make them wrong. Seriously, you make this much harder than it needs to be.


            • #36
              If you were to choose one book which teaches how to play pedals accurately and with confidence...what would that be?


              • #37
                Originally posted by Stephen LV View Post
                If you were to choose one book which teaches how to play pedals accurately and with confidence...what would that be?
                I wouldn't try learning a decent pedalling technique (for "classical" music) by using books alone. But Flor Peeters's organ method is quite concise.


                • Philip Powell
                  Philip Powell commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Practice is the best "book" you could ever want.

                • regeron
                  regeron commented
                  Editing a comment
                  You could consider working your way through the pedal exercises of one book, then move on to another. There will be some overlap of ideas, as well as a different emphasis on or approach to various aspects of pedaling.

                  In the grand scheme of things, no one book is complete in itself, but learning something from each of several books/teachers will be of more benefit.

                • Stephen LV
                  Stephen LV commented
                  Editing a comment
                  thank you both for your responses. ...

              • #38
                I agree with what others have said above and I'll add just a few thoughts and resources with some context.

                Most of the standard organ methods that include pedal technique and exercises (Gleason, Ritchie and Stauffer, Peeters, etc.) assume the pedal-playing organist-to-be has a good amount of piano training/skill such as being able to play J. S. Bach's Inventions and Sinfonias and easier piano sonatas by Beethoven and other Romantic era composers. In those methods the beginning musician without such skill is going to quickly hit a wall where pedal playing is the least of their challenges.

                A few newer methods including pedal technique and exercises have come out for musicians without much experience:
                1. Wayne Leupold Editions has a "Discover the Keyboard" series that can be followed by a "Discover the Organ" series. Both include and build using the pedal throughout the four volumes of each series. Additionally, coming is a four-volume supplemental pedal method that is coordinated with the "Discover the Keyboard" series that, from what I've seen, will be the most comprehensive pedal technique book for relatively inexperienced musicians. https://www.wayneleupold.com/index.php/
                2. Ulrike-Theresia Wegele has a new beginner's organ method I saw at the AGO 2020 PipeTalks. Her multi-volume method seems to be focused on self-teachers and includes pedal technique, improvisation, and other topics usually introduced later. A great plus for the method are the available individual videos on specific topics in the volumes. https://wegele.at/orgelschule_e.html

                I would be remiss not to include the generous learning resources including videos provided by the American Guild of Organists. While the AGO site also assumes established piano technique and skills as the methods mentioned above, the resources and videos will give a useful nudge forward for self-starters with a bit of skill. https://www.agohq.org/lessons-for-the-new-organist/

                Just a few pointers--good luck!


                • #39
                  I just read in the October issue of The American Organist (TAO) of another German organ method for complete beginners: Carston Klomp's Organ Playing from the Very Beginning. It currently appears on the publisher's English language landing page: https://butz-verlag.de/engl/index.htm. There's also a link to a 12-page excerpt: https://butz-verlag.de/notenbeispiel/2990.pdf.

                  The TAO article mentions the volume can be ordered through through the Organ Historical Society (U.S.) but I don't see it in their catalog yet: https://ohscatalog.org/.

                  I haven't seen the new volume--it's just one more to explore!