Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions

[quantum]

Where I live the RC churches who's music program includes a significant amount of traditional hymns is in a minority. This observance is more of personal experience visiting various churches. The most commonly used hymnal here is the CBW III which does contain a good amount of classical hymns, but sadly they remain un-sung. It is to my dismay that when I mention such well known tunes such as St. Anne or Regent Square, I get a look of unfamiliarity. If one were to ask a Roman Catholic in my town to name some hymns, undoubtedly tunes such as "Here I am" or "Be not afraid" would come up often. I'm not opposed to such music when it is used in good taste, placed in a well designed music program and accompanied by a skilled musician. Even more disheartening is the ever growing number of praise bands popping up in RC churches. So much so, that it is seeming to me that parishoners are being led to believe this is what good church music comprises of.
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In visiting other christian denomination churches, and from reading posts in this form it appears that many churches have congregations with a strong traditional hymn singing ability. Even in the writing of the pew edition of the hymnals it is evident that these people are used to looking at SATB scores. I can't say the same of the RC church where I live. Even the CBW III pew edition, most hymns are engraved with single line melodies. </p>

I can hear the difference in congregational participation in music. It is no where near as invigorating as when I visit churches of other denominations - and this saddens me as to the direction of music in the RC church.
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What is your experience with RC church music where you live? Are parishoners in your town versed in traditional hymns? If you are a music director, what have you done lead people to explore the traditional hymn repertoire? What does the main body of music familiar to most RC's in your town comprise of?
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[myorgan]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions



Unfortunately, in the variety of RC churches I've played for here in Maine over the last couple of decades, they used to use the Glory &amp; Praise series in addition to what is in the Missal. That included the two Air Force chapels for which I had contracts in Maine and Ohio. Recently, I went to an RC wedding of a family friend,and noticed the organist's version had SATB and hymns in it, but they weren't used. (I snuck up after the ceremony to check out the organ)</P>


At this point, it would probably be a foreign concept to introduce the hymns, and parishoners would find it less worshipful to begin learning them (again?). It should probably be done in the interest of advancing worship, but you'll have a hard road of it. Perhaps others have had better success.</P>


Sadly, in my state, RC attendance is declining and so is the tradition of actually singing at the services. It won't be long before we're in the quandry many European churches are.</P>


Sorry to be gloom, doom, &amp; despair, but those are my observations.</P>


Michael</P>

[njschranz]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions

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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Classical hymn singing in the RC is rather new; and then before it could really take root, along came the contemporary stuff so prevalent in most RC parishes today (much of which is garbage and more secular than religious). Believe it or not the preferred music (according to Rome and most church documentation)is Gregorian Chant and polyphony. Pope Benedict, in allowing the traditional liturgy (Tridentine Mass) to be celebrated more freely, has energized the "reform of the reform" movement. This group generally detests anything since Vatican II and do not really even believe in classical hymns. Interesting times are brewing in the RC. I foresee in the very near future where communion is only received on the tongue and while kneeling. I also foresee parts of the mass being put back into Latin (consecration in particular). Personally I believe too much was thrown out with Vatican II and I fear the pendulum of change will have us back in the 16th century. RC needs to find a middle groundbetween the ancient and modern practices.</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Don</SPAN></P>

[nullogik]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions

[quote user="njschranz"]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';">Classical hymn singing in the RC is rather new;
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';"></span> <span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';">Don</span></p>

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..and it shows. I walk into Baptist/Methodist/CofE Churches and the congregation are singing enthusiastically to the the hymns. Walk into RC Churches and all you can here is organ, most people mumbling the words (or hiding their faces behind their hymn books) and a handful of the "old hands" that try and sing up.</p>

About RC hymnals. Most places I come across use Hymns Old &amp; New (Kevin Mayhew) some use The New English Hymnal (Morehouse Pub) or Hymns Ancient &amp; Modern (SCM-Canterbury Press).
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[Guest]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions



Hey quantum, </P>


I've been RC all my life and still am, but for most of my organ career, I've played for the Protestant denominations. </P>


Here's the deal as I see it out here. </P>


The RC church is growing and growing with new churches being built. As a matter of fact, you'll see packed parking lots, and on one occasion, I saw a policeman directing traffic so that they could drive out. Even the weekday masses are well attended. So the RC church here is alive and well. </P>


As for the music, well that's another story all together. </P>


The congregation doesn't sing, period. Mywife and I sing out, (thanksto being exposed to the Protestant denominations), and weeither get complimented for having wonderful voices, or people just look plain surprised.</P>


The organ, if there even is one, is either not used, in a sorry state, and there's a plethroa of Yvonna type organists. Usually you get guitars, or an electronic keyboard with someone pretending they are on American/Canadian idol. I have yet to hear a decent cantor. I've been told that some of the RC churches don't even pay their musicians that well. You'll see some with transparancy screens. CBW III is used. I am not a big fan of CBW III. For starters, although there are some oldie goodies in it, they've changed the words, and the book is so big, it's a wonder the organist can hold the thing open. CBW II was far better. Glory and Praise and Gather are also two other popular hymnals I've seen. </P>


Choirs, well, with the exception of some churches, that too is non-existent or not doing too well. </P>


So add all this to the fact that most RC churches do not advertise for positions, you only hear them by word of mouth, and then on the off chance you hear of an opening somewhere, you go there and find out that you simply won't be able to do much there. </P>


So as a result, I've played for Protestant churches for most of my career, and I'm sure for all of my career unless something happens in the RC church's music ministry for the better. The Protestant churches could definitely teach the RC church plenty about music. It's unfortunate because the RC church used to be the patron of the arts, and it has such a rich history and legacy. </P>


I say all of this with sadness in my heart, but I know it is true. </P>


P.S. Njschrantz, your post is 100% on target. Well said. </P>

[soubasse32]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions

[quote user="ReedGuy"]Usually you get guitars, or an electronic keyboard with someone pretending they are on American/Canadian idol.[/quote]Apologies for goingso far off topic on such aserious thread but... wouldn't the term'American Idol' also apply to someone who is Canadian? []

[Guest]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions



Actually there is a Canadian Idol show here, similarly to the American Idol. </P>


I know of an RC church around here that like some others, spend tons of money putting granite in their sanctuary, renovating the rectory, expanding this, all expensive cosmetic stuff. Do you think they spent even a nickel on the music ministry? NO! .....But I'm not bitter!</P>


I remember talking to a priest who told me they tossed their pipe organ in favour of an electronic keyboard! THE HORROR!!! He said to me, "Well, why give the people a BMW when they only want a carton of milk at the corner store!" My reply, "The people eat the sand because they don't know the difference. It is our duty as the church and its ministers to educate them in the faith and in music.!" I was told I was being philosophical. </P>


Okay I'll stop. Way too many stories to tell. </P>

[soubasse32]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions

I'm not surprised that there is a Canadian Idol program.I was more struck by theuse of the word"Canadian" to differentiate from theword"American".

I've been taken to task by friends who live in Mexico (and other nearby countries); whenever I used theterm "American" to refer toUS citizenstheir response is: "We are Americans too".

[davidecasteel]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions



I am not a Roman Catholic, nor am I intending to step on any toes in my ignorance. However, I believe that the attempt to infuse traditional hymn singing into the RC church began in the late 1970s. I attended a USAF conference on church music at Berchtesgaden, Germany circa 1978 at which we were told that some in the RC church had admired the effect that hymn singing had on the congregations of traditional Protestant churches and decided that the practice had some merit, so were attempting to introduce that tradition into their congregations. The original RC hymnal was available for our perusal and it was completely unison, with no parts in the music all--just the melody line; the musicians had a different edition with full scores from which they could accompany the singing. The fear, I was told, was that exposing RC congregants to the complexities of 4-part music all at once would be so daunting that they would just reject the idea outright. (They may, of course, have been correct.)</P>


I play bells and have on occasion played as a substitute at a local RC church when one of their ringers could not be there (at special events--I do attend my own church). It is a 10,000 member RC congregation, and the music program there would be a serious embarrassment at any Protestant church of 1/10 the size: the vocal choir is about 20 singers, and they cannot find more than about 6 to 8 people to ring handbells. They do have a nice pipe organ and a good organist, but there is also a Praise Band. In all fairness, the layout of the church does not provide any space for choir or bells and it is possible that that has an impact on the size of the groups who participate.</P>


By comparison, my UMC church has 6,000 members, fields an adult choir of about 125 voices, a youth choir of about 30 (and growing again--it has been as big as 60), 4 or 5 children's choirs, and 6 handbell choirs (with 3 sets of handbells--3, 4, and 5 octaves). And our new facility with the Klais organ sponsors robust singing by the congregation.</P>


I enjoy listening to Gregorian chant and it does put me in a reverential mood (as is the intent), but I don't think I'd like having that as the only vocal experience in my worship. I'm not skilled at it, but I do attempt to sing along when present at a Catholic service (it happens). I sometimes find I'm one of the few in the congregation to even attempt it.</P>


David</P>

[davidecasteel]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions



What do they want us to call ourselves, "United Statesians"? "USers"? The Brits still call us "Colonials" but that won't do. "Yankees" would offend all the Southerners (and even some of the Yanks). I know, they want us to be "Mexicans" again. [+o(]</P>


It is technically true that all residents of North, Central, and South Americas are "Americans", but as far as I know, only we in the United States have traditionally used the term "American" to describe our identity; sometimes others will say that they are "South American" or "Central American", but citizens of the United States (and Canadians, too, I believe) seldom just say they are "North Americans"--the Canadians say they are "Canadians" and we say we are "Americans"--it is the title that has become universally recognized and I see no reason to abandon it just because some other folks noses are out of line.</P>


David</P>

[soubasse32]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions

[off-topic] I for one, can completely empathize with their viewpoint.

The word "American" properly references North, South, and Central America - many countries.

It seems presumptious that one country's citizenswould claim the term only applies tothem.

Sincethe subject seems to be so important to so many ofmy 'American' friends Itry to respecttheir feelings; I now refer to myself asbeing from theUnited States of America, or USA.

[Clarion]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions



[quote user="quantum"] I can hear the difference in congregational participation in music. It is no where near as invigorating as when I visit churches of other denominations - and this saddens me as to the direction of music in the RC church. [/quote]</P>


Indeed, RC music really stinks!! Andtothat end, I could hardly believe my ears whenI recently heard a RC congregation, of all hymns, engaged in a mostenthusiastic rendition of Martin Luther'swondrous Reformation Hymn: "A Mighty Fortress isOur God!!"</P>


No doubt, participantswill be consignedtoleast amillion years in Purgatory for engaging in such outrageously unacceptable behaviour. [^o)]</P>

[Menschenstimme]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions



Clarion and Davidecasteel, you guys are both correct about the RC situation. This link can shed more light on the situation better than I can:</P>


http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/CASING.TXT</P>


Angels and Ministers of Grace, defend us!</P>


[A]</P>
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[jimmywilliams]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions



We don't sing because "we're not worthy" []. Getting that out of the way...</P>


I will not get into discussions about what types of music are appropriate/good/etc., or why there is a tendancy for usRCs to be more taciturn than our Protestant brethren. I'll leave that for the theologians and musicologists to hash out. </P>


Having been involved with RC music ministry for many years (singing choir now, and a rareRC bell choir in our old church), I offer these suggestions to increase congregational singing.</P>


1. Most importantly: Use hymns/songs that are easy to sing all the way through. If they are not (Center Of My Life is a good example of a difficult, stumbling meter in the verses), the best you can hope for is the congregation singing on thechorus only, and the cantor sings the verses. This is not what you are looking for with hymn singing, but I guess it's beter than nothing. Pick pieces that have farily regular meter, avoid dotted 16ths, etc. Keep it simple. A lot of the old-world hymn tunes are much simpler in structure and easier to sing. Some of the newer songs are too. </P>


2. If you have a choir, especially a small one, sing in unison. No need to get into 4-part harmony and descants when you have 10 people in a choir - in my opinion. The choir is there to support the congregation in singing. It can get confusing when the melody line is not distinct and the congregation will not know which voices to follow. If you have a larger choir, and do harmony, make sure the melody line carries through. The congregation will only sing in unison - expect nothing more.</P>


3. Before Mass, if possible, spend a little while with the congregation reviewing the songs that will be sung. Actively encourage the singing and this can overcome some of the shyness factor. Additionally, you must have a cantor or choir, or the priest himself can lead the singing if possible, to build confidence in singing. You have to create a "culture" where participation in singing is actively encouraged, and you lead by example.</P>


4. Use Mass settings that are easy to sing and allow for full participation of the congregation of all thepieces. The Heritage Mass is good for this - all of the pieces follow roughly the same melody, andthe entire Gloria and Lamb of Godare sung by the entire congregation, not the call-response arrangement that is in many other Mass settings. Everyone knows the words already for the Mass settings so get them singing.</P>


5. The communion hymn - ditch it. Nobody will sing it all the way through. After receiving communion, congregants usually go back to their pews to pray and are in no mood for singing. Maybe play some sort of softer "meditation" instrumental piece during communion? </P>


7. Entrance-exit hymns - play all the verses - not just one or two. If the song is too "long" like that, this is a sign that it shouldn't be used for this purpose. Doing otherwise creates an environment where music is only being used to "take up space" during the procession/recession. Make these hymns an integral part of the Mass in themselves. Choose pieces that "move" and get people singing - and see item 1.</P>


8. Offeratory hymn - this is a tough one. Have no easy answers here. Obviously a slower piece would work better (here is where the "long" verses can come into play) but it is hard to get people to sing when they are busy waiting for the basket to come around, rummaging through their pockets/purses, etc.</P>


9. Use musical settings as much as possible. There are some very nice ones for the"Lord Have Mercy"and the Lord's Prayer but you rarely hear them being used. Again, everyone already knows the words and easy-to-sing arrangements of these present another opportunity for the congregation to sing. Do sung arrangements of the Psalm response, not spoken ones, where possible.</P>


Those are my suggestions, for what they're worth....</P>


-jim</P>
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[Guest]

Re: Roman Catholic hymn singing traditions



Hey Soubasse, </P>


To be completely honest, there is much talk here where I live about tolerance, diversity, respect of all cultures/countries, etc. but far too often I have seen and witnessed a sometimes seemingly radical patriotism to Canada that is completely dormant except when someone mentions the word America, American,or USA. It is most unfortunate but we get a steady diet of anti-Americanism here. I have even heard elected officials from the previously elected federal government make nasty comments about Americans in public to the media, which makes me, a Canadian ashamed. If only ALL forms of prejudice would just go away. If only. </P>


jimmywilliams, I like your suggestions. Well thought out, well said. </P>


P.S. I wish they would sing all the verses to the hymns in an RC church. </P>