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**nullogik** · 04-20-2010, 05:00 AM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

I'll give it a go. From my experiences with electronic organs (my speciality):

1) As many as you like. But clearly too many levels would make operating the crescendo pedal very hard to control as the slightest movement would cause it to fly up and down several levels. I've seen half a dozen levels ranging up to 15

2) Smooth action for all electronic organs I've encounted. But a notched or clicking action would be preferable IMO since its hard to tell what level you are at without having to glance at the display.

3) Yep, you've got it in one

4) Can be either visible or invisible.

5) Not sure.

6) Several indication methods available. Some have a row of LED bulbs which light up, one per level. Others have a digial readout that displays numbers indicating what level you are on. Both pipe and electronic organs can have one or the other (many pipe organs are retrofitted with digital displays).

7) Hitting pistons will overide what has been set by the crescendo pedal and vice versa.

8) If you select stops first then hit the crescendo pedal you may well find it cancels some stops that you've pre-selected or it may add some others on top. All depends on how you've set the crescendo pedal up.

9) No generally not, but its good idea. I'm sure there are quite a few of us who have accidentally hit the crescendo pedal.

10) & 11) Depends on the control system which differs from organ to organ (irrespective of whether its a pipe or digital organ).

**Guest** · 04-20-2010, 06:03 AM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

[quote user="rowan.bradley"]

Exploring best practice for the crescendo pedal on a pipe organ:

How many levels should the pedal have? Depends on the builder and type of organ. Mechanical or electric will probably have fewer levels than ones with digital controlers. I have 32 levels, with one crescendo orderset by the builder, and 3 more Crescendos (A,B and C) per level of memory that I can change to suit the need. Each level or number on the read outbrings on one or two stops, so it's a very exacting crescendo.

Should the pedal be smooth action (implying that you can’t be sure exactly which level the pedal is on) or should it have “clicks” or detents so you can feel as you move from one level to the next? I've only encountered smooth. I've played my organ long enough that I pretty much know by feel and ear where in the sequence the crescendo is.

What exactly should the pedal do? If you move the pedal to a new level, presumably it selects stops, and possibly couplers, or (if you are lifting the pedal) deselects stops? Exactly.

When it does this, do the stops physically move in and out, or does all this happen silently and invisibly? Depends on the builder and systemI suppose. On my digitally controlled one (Solid State Logic controler) my drawknobs are stationary. However, if I select "Blind" on the control panel, the drawknobs move, allowing one to see what's being changed.

Does the pedal have anything to do with swell (or other) expression settings? Should it be able to change the expression level? Since the swell shoes don't really have settings, they are not affected by the crescendo. The swell's are a different kind of volume control, so they shouldn't be tied into the crescendo pedal.

Is there any kind of display or indicator showing what crescendo level you are on? What sort of display works best? I have a numeral level indicater. I like it, but also like the lighted bar indicator too.

Having selected a crescendo level, if you then pull out or push in any drawstops, or press any pistons, what happens? Are these settings applied in addition to those from the pedal, or do they cancel and replace the pedal settings? Pistons will add/remove stops to the crescendo but not cancel those already drawn. However, if youcancel/close the crescendo pedal, any stops drawn by the crescendo pedal will be cancelled.

Having manually selected some drawstops, if you then move the pedal again, what happens? Does this cancel and replace any manual settings, or do these remain in force? See #7. The exception being the blind mode which allows hand drawn stops to remain unchanged.

Is there any kind of on/off switch for the crescendo pedal? If not, what stops the organist accidentally touching the pedal in the middle of a performance and getting a completely different set of stops than he indented? Most pedals are adjusted to be tight enough that a bump won't activate them. They're also located to where one should know where the pedal is. Lastly, if the programing is such that the softest stops are brought on first, then a slight bump from the 'off' position won't make much of a difference, unless couplers are involved!

How are the stops to be selected for each level of the pedal programmed? I had the 'factory' setting done to include all stops but celestes and some mutations, beginning with soft strings and adding to build a full tutti. Inter manual couplers are added near the beginning. My programable ones are A- full organ with out reeds B- a more orchestral build up and C-full build up of only swell, choir and pedal (for choral accompaniments)

Does the pedal need multiple memories for the stops to be selected for each level, so that (for example) different organists can have different settings, or different settings can be programmed for each piece of music? If so, how many such memories are needed? Each level of memory carries it's own set of crescendo levels as well (with the exception of the 'factory' setting, which remains the same.My church's organ has 100 levels of memory.

Thanks for your ideas!

Rowan

[/quote]

**AwfulClyde** · 04-20-2010, 06:13 AM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

From my experience, a crescendo pedal is strictly additive, it does not move the stop knobs and does not override stops already drawn. When I did study organ many years ago, my teacher, a product of the late 19th century, had no use for such an abomination[8o|] I'm sure with multi-level combination actions, having a custom crescendo pedal setting for each memory would be possible.

Pete

**Guest** · 04-20-2010, 07:27 AM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

[quote user="AwfulClyde"]a crescendo pedal is strictly additive, it does not move the stop knobs and does not override stops already drawn[/quote]

It must, surely, be subtractive as well, at least as far as stops that it itself has drawn - otherwise you could crescendo but never diminuendo? Also, surely, there are cases where you want moving from one level to the next higher level to add some stops but also remove some (presumably quieter) stops?

Maybe the system needs to keep track of stops that the organist has drawn manually or via a piston separately from those selected by the crescendo pedal, so the pedal can remove the latter but not the former?

Thanks - Rowan

**Guest** · 04-20-2010, 07:43 AM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

Many thanks for your helpful thoughts.

[quote user="nullogik"]1) As many as you like. But clearly too many levels would make operating the crescendo pedal very hard to control as the slightest movement would cause it to fly up and down several levels. I've seen half a dozen levels ranging up to 15[/quote]

I've heard of crescendo pedals with 60 or 80 levels (this presumably only makes sense on an organ with a wide range of stops). This would seem to suffer from exactly the problem you describe, unless they have a smart way of overcoming this?

4) Can be either visible or invisible.

As an organist, which would you prefer?

5) Not sure.

It seems to me that since both the swell pedal and the crescendo pedal are to do with controlling the volume (and quality) of the sound, it's illogical to treat them as two completely separate concepts. It also seems to me that it must be very difficult to use the two together, since when you programmed the crescendo levels, you must have had some level of the swell pedal in mind, and if the swell pedal is in a very different position when playing than it was when programming, the effect will not be what was intended. In fact you might find that what should have been a cresc turns out to be a dim or vice versa. It would seem to me that ideally it should be possible when programming the crescendo levels for the system to store the current swell setting, and on moving the crescendo pedal while playing to restore the swell to the stored level. A pedal designed like this could act as a combination of both, opening the swell box during part of its range, and bringing on more stops during other parts.

6) Several indication methods available. Some have a row of LED bulbs which light up, one per level. Others have a digial readout that displays numbers indicating what level you are on. Both pipe and electronic organs can have one or the other (many pipe organs are retrofitted with digital displays).

Any preferences for which works best? If there are as many as 60 levels, then a digital display would seem to be the only way of being sure the pedal is on exactly the right level, which you will need, at least when programming. I don't think a row of 60 LEDs would be precise enough...

10) & 11) Depends on the control system which differs from organ to organ (irrespective of whether its a pipe or digital organ).

Does anyone have any experience of a system for programming the levels that works well? Or examples of pitfalls to avoid, or systems that are difficult to use? It seems to me that the programming system needs to be quite smart, or it will be very difficult and tedious to use. If you have 60 levels to program, each of which can have any combination of stops, that's an awful lot of programming - and that's just for one memory channel...

Many thanks - Rowan

**Guest** · 04-20-2010, 08:40 AM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

Thanks for your ideas

[quote user="Ludwig tone"]Having selected a crescendo level, if you then pull out or push in any drawstops, or press any pistons, what happens? Are these settings applied in addition to those from the pedal, or do they cancel and replace the pedal settings? Pistons will add/remove stops to the crescendo but not cancel those already drawn. However, if youcancel/close the crescendo pedal, any stops drawn by the crescendo pedal will be cancelled.[/quote]

What do you mean by "pistons can remove stops from the crescendo but not cancel those already drawn"? A piston would normally completely override the stops and couplers currently selected, and replace them by those in its memory. Is that what happens here, or are the stops selected by the piston, or selected manually by drawing them, treated as "different" from those selected by the crescendo pedal? So in this case, if I press a piston, it would cancel any stops drawn manually or by pressing other pistons if they are not required by the new piston, but it would not cancel any stops selected by the crescendo pedal? This would mean that the organist could add to the current crescendo level by drawing stops or pressing pistons, but not subtract from it.

Does the pedal need multiple memories for the stops to be selected for each level, so that (for example) different organists can have different settings, or different settings can be programmed for each piece of music? If so, how many such memories are needed? Each level of memory carries it's own set of crescendo levels as well (with the exception of the 'factory' setting, which remains the same.My church's organ has 100 levels of memory.

Do you mean that the church organ would have 100 different sets of crescendo memory, each of which cov ers all the levels of the pedal (32 levels in your example)? Programming all of this sounds quite a chore. Do they provide any facilities to simplify the programming? For example ability to copy one memory to another so you can just program the changes?

Thanks for your ideas! This discussion is really helping me...

Rowan

**Menschenstimme** · 04-20-2010, 09:05 AM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

I must admit to being somewhat confused by this thread myself; however, it may help if we think of a crescendo pedal as something that can only add but never subtract. I hope that this statement on my part both makes sense and helps.

Also, the few times I have actually programmed a crescendo pedal it has been rather tedious. It is not straightforward and simple such as setting pistons.

**Guest** · 04-20-2010, 05:00 PM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

Looking at my system today, and then the recent responses, let me clarify and add to a few points.

1. I have 100 levels of organ memory for pistons. The crescendo pedal hasone "factory" setting plus 3 additional user settings (A, B and C), programable by the organist. All crescendo settings carry from one memory level to the next, so in reality, there are just 4 setting for the crescendo. The crescendo pedal has 32 stages (to help differ from the memory levels.) Each stage can be set with as many or as few stops as you wish. This means that the crescendo pedal can both ADD and SUBTRACT stops going from stages 1 to 32. However I only have it set to add stops as the stage numbers ascend. Thus descending through the stages subtracts stops.

2. Setting the crescendo is really as easy as turning the setter on, setting the crescendo pedal stage to 1, selecting the stop (or coupler)and depressing a set button. Then you advance to 2, pull on another stop(s), and press set. The drawknobs and couplers don't change from stage to stage during the setting process. Once finished you turn the setter off and the stages are locked. Very easy. I imagine any of the current digital operating systems would work in a similar fashion.

3. We need to remember to differentiate between the current digital controls, the older electric systems (I'm thinking of systems from the 20's through the 70's; sorry but I don't know the correct term or how they worked) and the old mechanical systems before electricity (were there such devices, or has electricity actually allowed this device/systemto evolve?)

4. A crescendo pedal should probably not be thought of as a way to control the volume of the organ, any more than the pistons would be used in this manner. To "ride" the crescendo is really not a great habit, and to trained organist, a rather tacky habit. Sorry, but it's the truth. Swell shades are used to vary volume, while adding stops, either by hand, piston or crescendo pedal is done to change tone, color or ensemble. The exception to this would be an unenclosed division, which of course then requires stop changes for volume change.

5.On my organ if the crescendo pedal is set at say level 10, about 1/3 of the resources are drawn . If I press a general piston that has say 3/4 of the resources programed to it, then it will add those stops to the ones already selected by the crescendo pedal. If I cancel the piston,then thosestops are cancelled, but not the ones selected by the crescendo pedal, unless the pedal position is changed.

6. For most cases, a crescendo pedal isn't used to bring on specific stops, so the issue of stopping at just the right point is moot. You can of course do that if you open it slowly enough, or practice opening it to a specific stage number, but a piston would better serve that need. Crescendo pedals are mainly to quickly add or subtract stops in a smoothmanner, allowing for a quick change with the foot rather than the hands. Used to be that you had to manually pull on stops, or an assistant would do that for you.

Hope this clarifies things a bit!

**Jay999** · 04-21-2010, 08:45 PM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

Historically, Crescendo pedals weremeant to be a registrational aid. As originally designed and built, they brought on a smooth sequence of stops, and couplers, from the softest to the loudest.The whole spectrum of sound an organ was capable of making could be smoothly built up....louder and louder, as the pedal was depressed further toward the "wide open" position.

Their usefulness was greatly appreciated by organists of the late 19th century and early 20th century. This was the era of concert music where "storm scenes" and very rapid accents (Sforzando) was almost expected by an audience during a choral program, or organ recital.

If built in it's traditional placement, the crescendo pedal is slightly raised higher than the expression pedals. Once familiar with the layout of the expression pedals, it is easy to "feel" where the foot comes up against the raised side of the crescendo pedal....so you don't operate it with the Swell expression pedal.

Through the years, crescendo pedals have become more versatile, where "stages" can be built in....a soft "full organ" followed by a space in travel before the "medium full organ"....and then another space beforethe "loud full organ".....followed by the big reeds, usually on the very back of the pedal, just when it is completely pushed "wide open".

Most crescendo pedals also had a few indicator lights, to signal about where the pedal was positioned during the build up cycle. The more the pedal was pushed on, the more lights that came on. Many organists found all of this so easy to manipulate, that they began to "abuse" the use of the pedal. Especially on smaller organs that had no pistions. It is for this reason that organ teachers began considering the crescendo pedal an "abomination". It taught the organist how to become "lazy" in their registration techniques.

Like so many other facets of the organ world, there was a group of organists who were "for" the crescendo pedal, and another group of organists who were "against" the pedal. In the case of the great concert organist, Edwin Lemare, he always designed a new organ with the crescendo pedal placed all the way over to the right side of the kick panel, just over the high G of the pedal notes. Obviously, he detested it. On the other hand, another great concert organist, Virgil Fox, used the crescendo pedal to it's fullest advantage in many of the pieces he played. He was greatly criticized for using it (in some instances) instead of the pistons on the organ. However, under close observation while he was playing....he was quite too busy to build a crescendo registration by pistons, or by hand, and the crescendo pedal was an obvious "best choice".

Today, with solid state consoles, and all sorts of computer circuitry...the crescendo pedal is almost a whole new device. It can have several preset buttons of it's own, creating three, four, five different registrations, and all selected by the organist, or by several organists...each wanting their own crescendo build up. They are fully changeable, and can even have a "lockout" on each preset, so another organist can't reset it.

Probably, with all the extra confusion of trying to set up a modern solid state crescendo pedal, and then having the thing completely"throw" you because something went wrong with itduring your recital....old Edwin Lemare will be looking down on you from his lofty place on high, and having a great laugh about your misfortune with a crescendo pedal.

Best wishes....

**Guest** · 04-21-2010, 09:09 PM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

Great history and info Jay. Thanks so much. How did the old system work? A wired disc and metal contact system?Our friend has a Lemere console in storage and, yes, the crescendo pedal is WAY to the right!

**davidecasteel** · 04-22-2010, 11:37 AM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

Weren't the original mechanical units rotating drums with raised camming surfaces that tripped the stops? They would have been connected in an "OR" fashion (a stop was engaged if either the Crescendo mechanism or its Stop Knob called for it); thus, the Crescendo pedal could add and remove stops not already selected but would not affect those manually drawn.

David

**Guest** · 04-22-2010, 03:50 PM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

Thanks for your informative reply. This sounds a pretty good system. One or two questions arising:

What do you mean by "turn the setter on"? Is this a switch or pushbutton (with lamp?)or drawstop?

And is it also associated with setting pistons, or is it just for the crescendo pedal?

Is the "set" button the same as the one for setting pistons, or a separate button just for the crescendo?

Is there any way of checking visually what stops you've set for each stage of the pedal, or do you just have to listen to it?

When you press General Cancel, does it turn off the stops selected by the crescendo pedal, or do they continue to play? The former sounds illogical(if the rule is that the stops selected by the pedal are not affected by drawstops and pistons operated manually) but the latter sounds rather disconcerting - you might think you've deselected everything by pressing general cancel, only to find you've got some loud stops selected via the pedal when you inadvertently touch the keyboard...

**pipecutter** · 04-22-2010, 05:14 PM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

[quote user="rowan.bradley"]

Thanks for your informative reply. This sounds a pretty good system. One or two questions arising:

What do you mean by "turn the setter on"? Is this a switch or pushbutton (with lamp?)or drawstop?

And is it also associated with setting pistons, or is it just for the crescendo pedal?

Is the "set" button the same as the one for setting pistons, or a separate button just for the crescendo?

Is there any way of checking visually what stops you've set for each stage of the pedal, or do you just have to listen to it?

When you press General Cancel, does it turn off the stops selected by the crescendo pedal, or do they continue to play? The former sounds illogical(if the rule is that the stops selected by the pedal are not affected by drawstops and pistons operated manually) but the latter sounds rather disconcerting - you might think you've deselected everything by pressing general cancel, only to find you've got some loud stops selected via the pedal when you inadvertently touch the keyboard...

independently

all

Some

**Guest** · 04-22-2010, 07:52 PM

Re: How should a crescendo pedal work?

The following relates only to the Solid State Logic controler system on my organ. Other systems may operate differently.

[quote user="rowan.bradley"]

Thanks for your informative reply. This sounds a pretty good system. One or two questions arising:

What do you mean by "turn the setter on"? Is this a switch or pushbutton (with lamp?)or drawstop? Push button (marked CRESC ADJUST)on the control panel.

And is it also associated with setting pistons, or is it just for the crescendo pedal? This button is just for the crescendo.

Is the "set" button the same as the one for setting pistons, or a separate button just for the crescendo? The same SET button sets pistons and crescendo.

Is there any way of checking visually what stops you've set for each stage of the pedal, or do you just have to listen to it? Stops are pulled for each stage during the set process, so you can see the pulled stops as a "check" measure.

When you press General Cancel, does it turn off the stops selected by the crescendo pedal, or do they continue to play? No. The General Cancel affects only the pulled stops (either by hand or piston). The former sounds illogical(if the rule is that the stops selected by the pedal are not affected by drawstops and pistons operated manually) but the latter sounds rather disconcerting - you might think you've deselected everything by pressing general cancel, only to find you've got some loud stops selected via the pedal when you inadvertently touch the keyboard... Well, if you have the crescendo pedal engaged, then yes, stops are active and so would the keyboards be. I'm sure all organists have stories of thinking they've cancelled the stops only to forget the crescendo pedal.

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How should a crescendo pedal work?

How should a crescendo pedal work?

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