Holtkamp vs tracker

[Guest]

My church has a big 1956 Holtkamp. Our music committee is suggesting that it needs to be rebuilt -- and that it would make more sense to spend almost $4 million (including structural changes) on a tracker. There's been no serious exploration of rebuilding the Holtkamp, but I am led to believe that would cost no more than $800,000. It needs new leathers, complete replacement of electronics, some mechanical work and some revoicing. I think our committee is so set on a tracker that it isn't possible to get objective data from that group on rebuild vs new. And I simply don't get the proposition that a tracker style organ is infinitely preferable. Our vestry, of which I'm a member, will be voting on this proposal in a few months. Where can I go for advice I can trust?

[m&m's]

Talk to whoever services your organ on a regular basis. Do this without the music committee present. And, as with major medical problems, it doesn't hurt to get a second opinion, from a person who is knowledgeable about organs-and who does not build them, so that he can be impartial.

Holtkamp made good organs. I would think long and hard before replacing the one you have.

$4 million is a lot of money. I would want to know a whole lot more before I even thought of spending that kind of money on a new organ.

[VaPipeorgantuner]

There are many organ builders that would (for a fee, many of them) act as an independant consultant, and examine and report on the condition of the organ at your church.

the suggestion to talk to your regular service provider should provide some insight as to the real needs of the organ vis-a-vis the rebuild versus replace...but if that firm has a proposal for the rebuilding of the organ on the table, you ought to seek out an independent builder to evaluate the instrument.

there are LOTS of question to be asked of the organ committee. the proposed price tag should buy a LOT of pipe organ. FWIW, Tracker organs have some advantages and some disadvantages to be considered. It would be prudent to "casually" talk to some of the non-dominant members of the organ committee to see if there is an agenda amongst a few persons to drive for the tracker organ. (Isn't church politics FUN!?!?!)

the price you mentioned...is that ONLY for the cost of the organ, or is that inclusive of other work to be done in the worship space for things like structural or acoustical improvements? that also may drive the decision and make the comparison of rebuild-vs-replace on more equal footing.

If you have specific questions, feel free to post them on this thread or use the private message to converse with the organ builders on this forum...we will be happy to offer what information we can that will help guide your vestry's decision without any conflict of interest.

Rick In VA

[Guest]

Thank you for these comments. Just to clarify, the proposal is to spend $2.25 million for a Richards, Fowkes & Co. tracker PLUS $1.5 million for structural changes to accommodate the new organ. And yes, there's an agenda at play here and a long series of political maneuvers by a dean who's no longer in the picture. And there's a divided vestry and a skeptical congregation. Our church has done wonderful work in our community for almost 200 years. I hate to see this kind of thing eating away at that spirit. Classical music has a central place in my life, but I'm an organ ignoramus and am looking for help. I want to gather believable data and neutral opinions to help my fellow vestry members steer an intelligent course through the political swamp.

[davidecasteel]

I am by no means an expert, but I did serve on my church's Organ Selection Committee a few years ago, and, I believe, helped focus our attention on what was important. In your case, I think the first issue to be confirmed is the current condition of your present organ and what must be done to make it able to continue service, plus changes to it that are deemed appropriate to improve its ability. If that $800,000 rebuild figure is reasonable, a lot of fixing up and modification should be possible. (My church got a Klais 4/83 organ for $1.5M, just double your rebuild amount.)

I don't know how big or rich your congregation is, but $4M is a lot of money for most churches. My church was extremely fortunate to have a donor couple with enough money and good will to pay for the entire instrument--most churches are not so lucky. I would think long and hard before committing that huge sum to pull out and replace a serviceable instrument with another, and requiring structural changes to do so. Depending on just what is involved, those structural changes can be very disruptive to the functions of the church, too.

You have indicated that church politics is involved (when is it not?) but that the primary instigator is no longer in play. Did that person have some kind of ties to Richards, Fowkes & Co.? Why was that builder chosen? How many others had been considered?

Any decision involving this level of expense should have a lot of examination and discussion. Although a "new is always better" attitude is widespread, it is not always correct. Your present organ was made by a respected builder and was apparently considered sufficient for quite some time. What deficiencies (if any) have been identified in its tonal makeup when compared to the needs of the church? What additions have been suggested to improve that tonal makeup? Why could those not be met by judicious modifications to the existing instrument? Would those modifications require any structural modifications to the building, and if yes, would they be as extensive as those required for the proposed new instrument?

$4M is 5 times as much money as $800K--this is not a mere quibble. First find out if the current organ can be rebuilt and expanded (if desired) to meet the needs of the church. Get a good estimate of what that cost would be. If a rebuild is practical, that should be the principal alternative focused upon. If even a rebuilt instrument would not be reliable enough or extensions would not provide the tonal resources now desired, then looking for a replacement would be logical. Since you have said there was church politics involved in getting to your current situation, it would be helpful to discover what and who were the drivers of that path, and whether the needs of the church even entered into it.

You have made a point of stating that the proposed instrument is a Tracker (mechanical action)--are we to infer that the current instrument is not? If so, you might find that the principal reason a change is being sought is simple: the Organist wants a Tracker. (If this is the case, it might be a lot cheaper to change Organists....) Although organ purists think that Tracker actions are always better, there are some organists who don't want to cope with the increasing key pressures required when more stops are added in such instruments. The new organ in my church (entire facility is new) is designed to be able to have both mechanical and electric action, but only the electric action has been installed. We were faced with the reality that initially only one type could be provided, so we opted for the electric action because it allowed more flexibility in positioning the console. We had lots of organists (including our former Minister of Music) lobbying for the Tracker, but from a practical viewpoint we chose otherwise. One can find statistics supporting the idea that mechanical action is more reliable and maintenance is cheaper, but I'm not satisfied that they are unbiased.

To sum things up: first confirm that a suitable rebuild (with changes) is possible to meet your current needs, and what it would cost; then determine what the real reasons are that a replacement is being proposed. You may find that for 1/5 the money your church could have a fine instrument meeting all your needs, and that you would have kept a historical organ still working.

David

[VaPipeorgantuner]

another alternative would be to have the present Mr Holtkamp (3rd generation of Walter Sr., the founder of the company) visit and appraise the condition of the organ. Since that company built the original instrument, he would be able to evaluate the condition and advisability of rebuilding the organ. the prposed $800,000 rebuild should accomodate a LOT of restorative work with additions as deemed necessary.

I will say that Richard, Fowkes & Co. does build a good quality instrument, and for 2.5 million $$$'s must be proposing quite a sizeable instrument.

It will be worth the money for your Vestry to bring in it's own consultant, not to undercut the work of the organ committee, but to reinforce and enhance their work.

Rick in VA

[myorgan]

It would be interesting to me to know if they plan on selling the Holtkamp to help fund the tracker. Of course, I'm sure they have an inflated estimate of its value in the present market.

This entire deal sounds a bit fishy to me. I'm not sure I'd consider altering the Holtkamp by expanding it unless it is so tonally insufficient it cannot handle your current needs. Also, why, after 50+ years has the Holtkamp suddenly become a candidate for replacement?

To be clear, I've never liked Holtkamp after the rude reception I received at their factory several years ago (demonstrating a rather elitist attitude), and I haven't been impressed with the 2 or 3 of their instruments I've run into. I'm sure they've made some fine instruments, and I wasn't aware of the repair/alteration history of those instruments either.

That said, it appears strange to me a builder for the tracker has already been chosen without an independent organ consultation. The advice to hire a consultant is valid, and solid advice.

Best of fortune to you in your endeavors.

Michael

[Havoc]

Where does the 800000 figure come from? I have the feeling that it is more a gut feeling than a real number based on an offer by someone knowledgable. I can't help thinking that the poster isn't without an agenda himself. You really do have to ask other questions as well, like:

- does the 1.5 million include work that otherwise would also be done in the church? It wouldn't be the first time that the whole church is repainted before work is done on an organ. Or the roof relaid, the heating replaced etc. How much of this would be spend even if they repaired the current organ?
- how much are we told about how the conclusion to get that particular organ was reached? For all I know there has been an independent consultant but we don't know it.
- if this would have been the idea of a single person that isn't involved anymore, but it just goes further then this isn't the whole story.

Sure it's a valid question, but it only makes sense to discuss it if the whole picture is known. And I fear that this isn't the case.

[VaPipeorgantuner]

Where does the 800000 figure come from? I have the feeling that it is more a gut feeling than a real number based on an offer by someone knowledgable. I can't help thinking that the poster isn't without an agenda himself. You really do have to ask other questions as well, like:

- does the 1.5 million include work that otherwise would also be done in the church? It wouldn't be the first time that the whole church is repainted before work is done on an organ. Or the roof relaid, the heating replaced etc. How much of this would be spend even if they repaired the current organ?
- how much are we told about how the conclusion to get that particular organ was reached? For all I know there has been an independent consultant but we don't know it.
- if this would have been the idea of a single person that isn't involved anymore, but it just goes further then this isn't the whole story.

Sure it's a valid question, but it only makes sense to discuss it if the whole picture is known. And I fear that this isn't the case.

HAVOC -

the original sum was $4 million, with 2.5 mil for the organ and 1.5 mil for structural work to support the new organ. The $800 thousand was from some quote from the organ committee people who were advocating dumping the Holtkamp in favor of a new tracker by Richards, Fowlkes & Co. (a builder from Tennessee...well respected in the organ building community for quality tracker organ building). The present Holtkamp is apparently an electro-pneumatic organ in need of releathering/control system upgrades. No mention of whether the new organ would retain pipes from the existing organ. No mention of a consultant to the organ committee...just a departed Dean and someone on the organ commitee pushing for the change-out of organs (maybe the organist? the OP didnt say).

An outside adviser with NO agenda, no bidding interest involved, would be the best avenue for this Vestry to persue...someone knowledgeable about organ building and episcopal liturgy that can look from a detached and objective viewpoint.

Rick in VA

p.s. I am not asking, but it would sure be interesting to know where this organ is located...see a stoplist of the present instrument...the organ would have been built by Walter Senior...and really 50 years on a set of leather (depending on where the organ is) may be a pretty good life-span...my guess is that the organ cost less when new than the figure of $800,000 to rebuild now.

[Havoc]

I can read you know. Thing is that the 800000 is "some quote", not a figure that comes from a tender to repair the old organ. Read it:

but I am led to believe that would cost no more than $800,000

At least not that much was told us. That's why I find it just as fishy. It looks as if the thread starter wants an affirmation of his own beliefs. (which we are giving him) But we are putting next to each other 2 numbers where only one is founded in reality, the other is gossip so to speak. But so far everybody here is taking that 800000 and accept it like it is written in stone.

If they have a full price quote for the new organ and the work on the church, then this isn't something that started last month. That takes at least better part of a year.

[Austin766]

Just a point of Holtkamp history, it was Walter Jr "Chick" Holtkamp who really re-introduced trackers for Holtkamp, although in some of their earlier incarnations (e.g. Vottler, Vottler Hetche) they built trackers, most of Walter Holtkamp's instruments were electric/e-p action, although he experimented with trackers in his shop in the 1930s, they really didn't catch on until the 60's or 70's.

[VaPipeorgantuner]

In the late 1960's and early 1970's Walter Sr. was starting to built tracker organs. The first "Chick" tracker (if not THE first, among the very earliest of them) was built for Bradley Hills Presbyterian Church in Bethesda, MD. Donald Southerland was the organist there at the time and the organ was/is highly regarded by the local organ community. I have played that organ a number of times (having grown up just a few miles away from that church)...it is a wonderful instrument for what it is intended to do, which is to play Bach and also french classical literature (an area of special interest to Don Southerland at the time). When the organ was first put in, the action was somewhat stiff, but it was re-worked and plays pretty well, even with all 3 manuals coupled. The blend of the organ is remarkable in that you can combine almost ANY stop from any division with any other stop from anywhere on the organ and the balance works well. Even tho it's a tracker organ, the console is detached from the main body of the organ by quite some distance.

Rick in VA

[Austin766]

Uh, Rick, Walter Sr. wasn't doing much of any organ building in the late 60's/early 70's, since he died in 61. Now that that's out of the way, I personally know a 2m Holtkamp tracker about a half an hour from my home, Holtkamp job # 1971, it's a charming little organ, the first Holtkamp with their "new" intentionally variable wind system (which by the way, took them two years to really work out, such that though the instrument was inaugurated in 1982, it wasn't really finished until 84).

[Philip the organist]

Perhaps it might be helpful for people to know the religious affiliation of the church. EG, for Anglican worship in the mainstream heritage, a 1950s Holtkamp is probably less than ideal, which would lead one to wonder why a tracker is being considered, when an EP Willis or Schoenstein or something of that ilk might be better. Then again, if it is a Lutheran church with a strong Germanic heritage....a tracker might be right.

[Austin766]

While a mid century Holtkamp by Walter Sr. may not be ideal, they can work very well in Anglican worship, it's just a matter of knowing how to use the resources available. St. Paul's Episcopal in Cleveland Heights with its 1952 Holtkamp does quite fine with it, and it is unaltered tonally from the day that Walter Sr. left it, although the church has bypassed the setterboard and added a few couplers to the instrument, that's all reversible. I might mention that St. Paul's is the largest congregation in the diocese.

I realize that Walter Sr.'s work isn't exactly as popular as it once was, and in some ways is viewed much as the big Austins, Skinners, Mollers and Kimballs were during the organ reform movement, where so many romantic, symphonic organs were either substantially altered or worse, thrown out like yesterday's trash in favor of the neo-baroquen trends of the time, and that is what I fear may happen to this Holtkamp. I fear that it may fall victim or prey to the tastes of the time and be either substantially altered or thrown out all together in the name of progress.