Suggestions for additional stop

[Guest]

Dear organ Forum listers,

I am seeking suggestions for an additional rank to my church organ. I am posting on the is site for the first time and was lead here at the suggestion of the moderator on the Choralnet forum.

My organ in in a colonial era Catholic Cathedral that sits between 900 - 1,000 people. It is a 'vintage' Louis Debierre organ which built, shipped and installed in 1882. My description of the specifications are as follows:
Swell: 8' Flute harmonique, 8' Gamba, 8' Voix Celeste, 4' Prestant, 2' Doublette, 8' Trompette (very nice)
Great: 16' Burdon, 8' Montre, 8' Burdon, 4' Flute Octave
Pedal Board: no independent stops, couples with swell and/or great, square arrangement, one and a half octaves
Other: Tremulant (not very effective)
It plays the smaller organ works, particularly the romantic ones, very nicely. But when the cathedral is full, I have to open up the case for more volume to lead congregational singing.

The organ is being dismantled and put in storage in preparation for the replacement of the entire roof of the cathedral. My organ tchnician inform me that he discovered that there is an unused rank in the swell box. I asked if we could put in an oboe stop but he says that the available space will only allow a stop of no more than 1.5' (I take it that an oboe pipes are bigger.)

I do not know much about these things but I would like to include a rank that fits into the general symphonic sound of this organ. I would very much like ot hear suggestion from persons in this forum as to what type of pipe we can put in. Thanks in advance for your assistance.

[michaelhoddy]

Well, you have three challenges: firstly, the organ is historic, so any additions or alterations should be within the bounds of what would not damage the character and value of the instrument. Secondly, of course, is the space limitation in the swell box- there's not much that would fit inside that space that's in character with the rest of the instrument, besides perhaps a 2-2/3' or 1-1/3' mutation rank. And thirdly, the Swell is the division that is already most complete, and adding another stop inside the box is not likely to help too much with your goal of increasing the instrument's ability to lead congregational singing.

The Great or the Pedal is where an additional rank would be most useful, honestly. Getting a 4' Principal or even a 2' Flute into the Great will help it as a congregational instrument.

[majestique]

Dear organ Forum listers,

I am seeking suggestions for an additional rank to my church organ. ... My description of the specifications are as follows:
Swell: 8' Flute harmonique, 8' Gamba, 8' Voix Celeste, 4' Prestant, 2' Doublette, 8' Trompette (very nice)
Great: 16' Burdon, 8' Montre, 8' Burdon, 4' Flute Octave
Pedal Board: no independent stops, couples with swell and/or great, square arrangement, one and a half octaves

As Michael said, one of the things you need to keep in mind is that this appears at first blush to be an instrument with some historical value, and should be treated as such. It is possible that some alterations have already been undertaken, which would limit the historic value unless these can be undone. Perhaps that should be part of what guides your discussion.

By the date of the instrument I'm guessing it is mechanical action, which will make changes a bit more challenging to accomplish. Michael suggested that the presence of a 4' Principal on the Great would be an aid to congregational accompaniment. There is merit to this, though I note you mention only an extra space on the Swell manual.

One possible suggestion for this would be (if feasible) to swap the Swell 4' Prestant with the Great 4' Flute Octave. That would give you a better balance of stops on the Great division. Whether or not this would work from a tonal standpoint could only be answered by those familiar with the instrument. Looks good on paper, but...

If you choose such an option, and if the organ is still as historic as it appears it could be, make sure you document *everything* that was done so at some future date the changes can be reversed if desired.

As to what will fit the available space on the Swell, I don't get a clear picture of the space. You mention 1.5'. Does that mean a foot and a half of vertical clearance, or did you mean 1.5", which more likely refers to the width of the rackboard? In either case you're going to be very limited in what will fit. About the only thing that is going to fit a space that small is a 1-1/3' Quint, which, if voiced properly, could be a nice little addition to the solo capabilities of the Swell while also providing just a little "sparkle" when coupled to the Great for fuller registrations.

One thing to ask your technician is whether or not it would be feasible to add a Pedal rank without compromising the integrity of the organ. Space may be a restriction, as may be the construction of the original action. If the space is available though, it is likely the action can be worked with. Perhaps an appropriately scaled 16' Bourdon? I'd think the versatility this would add would be worth the expense if it can be managed.

Hope it all works out well! Be sure to keep us posted.

[toodles]

Another thought

I wrote this out the long way, but when posting, the forum "timed out" and I lost the message.

This doesn't address historical concerns but might prove useful if space allows:

Make the Swell be this, by moving stops from the Gt; use the Swell as the main division.
16' Bourdon
8' Montre
8' Bourdon
4' Prestant
2' Doublette
1-1//3' Nineteenth (NEW RANK)
8' Trompette

This makes the Great a secondary division, as follows:
8' Gamba
8' Voix Celeste
8' Flute Harmonique
4' Flute Octave

This approach gives you a full, powerful main division on the swell, and a light secondary division on the Great. If the Great is unenclosed, it's still small enough that if the pipes are gently voiced, it might work out OK.

But then again, things might not fit, and voicing might not be conducive to this approach. It is, however, much along the lines of what I would do with 11 straight ranks.

Toodles

[james]

Well, you have three challenges: firstly, the organ is historic, so any additions or alterations should be within the bounds of what would not damage the character and value of the instrument. Secondly, of course, is the space limitation in the swell box- there's not much that would fit inside that space that's in character with the rest of the instrument, besides perhaps a 2-2/3' or 1-1/3' mutation rank. And thirdly, the Swell is the division that is already most complete, and adding another stop inside the box is not likely to help too much with your goal of increasing the instrument's ability to lead congregational singing.

The Great or the Pedal is where an additional rank would be most useful, honestly. Getting a 4' Principal or even a 2' Flute into the Great will help it as a congregational instrument.

I agree here. I would add an Octave 4', and perhaps unify it with a Fifteenth 2' which would give added brillance for a Principal chours.

[davidecasteel]

I like toodles' suggestion, but agree that the Pedal would certainly benefit from a 16' rank of its own. I think I'd prefer something with more harmonic content than a Bourdon, though--perhaps a soft Diapason or a Violone?

David

[Guest]

Yes the instrument is considered historic and was restored some 15 years ago by the French Ministry of Culture using the plans for this very organ that were filed in the Paris Library. The organ is mechanical and I take your point of having all changes documented. in therms of the available space, I think my tech ment 1.5 feet of vertical clearance to fit the pipes.

I am loving all of the feedback and will keep you all posted about the decision and the progress.

[VaPipeorgantuner]

is this a mechanical action organ? If so, you only have the option of adding a small rank, preferably a Tierce 1 3/5 or a Larigot 1 1/3 depending on the width of the empty space on the chest and any toe-holes that may already exist. Moving the ranks around wholesale as previously suggested is most likely NOT an option due to the limited space available inside the swell enclosure. If anything, I would sacrifice the 16' Manual bourdon IF, and ONLY IF there were the space available to make it a pedal rank for the existing pedal board (which will require a new chest, new key action to the new chest, and advantageous placement for tuning/maintenance....then I would want a 4' Octave to take it's place. the new pipework would need to be voiced and regulated to blend with the old pipework.

The tonal 'ethos' of organs built for that period of time, particularly in an RC church, would have been one of more accompanimental style, not intended to lead 900 singing voices, but more to provide contemplative and 'cover' music in various points of the mass and perhaps solos and choral accompaniment. changing the organ should only be done under the most thoughtful of circumstances, as it is of a historical nature that, once lost or altered, may be gone for good.

Rick in VA

[davidecasteel]

And if the church has become more modern and now has congregational singing (unheard of 100 years ago), how are they to be accompanied? The needs of the congregation are also of concern.

David

[VaPipeorgantuner]

David -

I just wanted to point out the pros and cons of altering the organ. The organ is, of course, the property of the church, and they are fully justified in doing whatever alterations they might deem necessary, if they change the organ at all. I just think that taking into account the unique nature of the existing organs of that time period is a big consideration when talking about any major changes that might be made. From reading the original post, the ability to add a rank that would add significantly to the ability of the organ to lead singing seems pretty limited (adding a Tierce or Larigot would add color but not volume per se). Moving ranks around in different divisions is a option, (such as the suggestion of swapping the GT flute 4' with the SW Octave 4') but needs to be done in a way that it would be reversible if the change is not effective. Simply put, it is a hard call to make, since we don't have first-hand knowledge of the organ, and speculation (arm-chair organbuilding) is easy. I guess that what I am saying is that they shoulod think CAREFULLY about what, if any, changes they make to the organ, particularly given it's particular rarity.

Rick in VA

[davidecasteel]

Granted.

David

[m&m's]

I must respectfully disagree with Rick. No matter how important an organ may be historically, if it is in a church it is there to serve the church. I have done much reading about this issue, and I know that many feel that an organ should be maintained in its origiinal state perpetually, especially if it was built by a "famous" builder, but the organ is there for the use of the church, and if the need arises, the organ should adjust to that need. A church is not a museum, but a living organism that may go through wide changes over its history.

Of course, if the church has the money to have two organs, that is a different story

[Clarion]

Cedric,

As I read through your initial message, the first thing that came to mind for an additional stop, was an oboe!! ;-)And that was before I read your preference, and why that would be impossible. Beyond that, nothing else really comes to mind; and certainly not within the severe limited physical constraints!

The idea of adding some sort of mutation stop(s) to this kind of organ, seems totally awkward and out of place. Not that I am suggesting maintaining some sort of historical persective for the twelve people in the entire country who might care. I fully agree with m&m's perspective on UPgrading organs. If they were perfect from inception, then they would not need to be upgraded. But some of these old relics were far from ideal. Even amongst the great historic organs of Europe, how many still have lackies treadling the bellows the keep them running?

[james]

My thoughts are as many others regarding this organ. If it is used now it needs to be sufficent for the work needed. If it is that precious I think the church should get another organ to use if they have that many to play for each week. It can be done you know.

Many old organs are upgraded, and have to be rennovated over a period of years to remain useful. I think and agree that only a very few people would agree that it should remain as when built new ages back.

Surely a reasonable and common sense decision can be reached soon with the church having that many in attendance. However it often seems the musical instruments such as an organ or piano are the last to be considered at times in the various churches. Most churches will sponsor most everything else, and even send missionaries to foreign countries before they want to spend a dime on the organ or piano. Then they expect an outstanding performance each week by the musicians.

I have played on some very nice organs in churches, and then found what some had to offer an insult to me as a musician.

[randy35630]

The swell is already the main division...you have a 4' Principal, and if the 2' Doublette is a principal (my understanding is that in real French organs the "Doublette" means the same thing as our north American term "Fifteenth"), I would not swap the 4' flute from the great with the principal from the swell. I would not add a Tierce, as that would do nothing in the way of expanding the ensemble.

The suggestion to add a 1-1/3 Quint (I would make it a Principal if the existing 2' is also a principal or leans in that direction.) You might consider adding a Twelfth 2-2/3, leaving out the bottom octave if you don't have room, but I think the 1-1/3 would give you the allusion of a mixture more than a 2-2/3 would.

Adding an independent pedal 16' Subbass on electric action could be done in such a way as would not destroy the historic aspect of the organ other than a few screw holes under the pedal board if you keep the on/off switch simple, and it could always be removed.

There is the option of opening the toe holes of the main principal stops...in other words...forcing more volume out of them. That can always be reversed. Don't do anything you can't reverse, so no messing with cut-ups, nicking, etc.

My feeling is that aside from adding the 1-1/3 Quint to the swell, and the tacked on pedal Subbass, I'd just accept it for what it is, and live with it. If there is room and the church really needs more sound, consider conservation of the antique organ as is, or with perhaps the addition of an independent pedal 16' and on the blank swell toeboard perhaps a Voix Humaine or Nazard 2-2/3 to make the organ more versatile for voluntaries and maybe choral/solo accompaniment, and then acquiring a good RECENT digital organ - no more than 2 manuals/pedal and use that when the historic organ won't work.

Honestly, I think treating the historic organ as such and respecting it is the thing to do. I'm wavering now on my idea of adding the independent Subbass in the pedal, but if there is a blank toeboard in the swell, a well chosen stop in keeping with the existing pipework and period would not be out of place.

I am bothered by the practice of buying a new stock or custom digital organ and "hooking up" some or all of the pipes of a legitimate real organ to it. But in your case, keeping this historic organ in place and respecting it, especially if it is original to the building, and working around the difficulty it presents to modern service playing is the thing to do. However, I don't see any wrong in ADDING a second organ, pipe or digital, that will allow you to do your job effectively. I'd use the pipe organ for everything except perhaps congregation accompaniment and postludes.