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  • Please Explain the "Lieblich Mechanism"

    Hello,

    Could someone please explain what the "Lieblich Mechanism" is, what it does, and how it works? I've used the 16' Lieblich Gedackt in the Pedal for years, and only on this Forum have people referred to it, but never described specifically what it is, and how it is employed.

    Thanks in advance.

    Michael

    P.S. When I finally get to install my pipe organ, I hope to include/add this stop, hence the interest.
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

  • #2
    Michael,

    Others with more detailed pipe knowledge than I can fill in here, but I believe it is simply a way to supply a big pedal bourdon with slightly lower wind pressure so that it can speak more softly when needed that way. This would require that the rank be in its own chest, of course, and that chest fed by a separately regulated wind supply. Drawing the Bourdon stop would engage the rank with full wind pressure, while drawing the Leiblich would engage the same rank, but introduce the regulator to lower the pressure. I suppose there are purists who would say that the voicing and tuning are also affected, and that it is a bit of a cheat, but certainly the concept is useful in an organ where an entirely separate rank just for a soft 16' pedal is economically unfeasible.

    Of course, we do it all the time in electronic organs, especially the smaller Allens. The MADC models almost all had a Bourdon 16 in the pedals that could become a Leiblich when a bass attenuating circuit was introduced into the channel.
    John
    ----------
    *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

    Comment


    • #3
      So, then, it has nothing to do with the Bourdon 16' pipes that have a piece of metal that can be slid into the foot/toe to reduce the wind supply for that pipe. I've seen that before, but was unfamiliar with the mechanism you described. I wonder if all Lieblich pipes are configured that way, or if there are some separate ranks, just voiced appropriately? I can certainly see the issue about the voicing, and perhaps even the rapidness of pipe speech.

      Thanks for the explanation.

      Michael
      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
      • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

      Comment


      • #4
        The Lieblich Mechanism is indeed a way to get two stops out of one set of pipes. The lieblich is played at a reduced pressure.
        I had an interesting service call at a Methodist Church that had one of these.The problem was that one certain note would cypher (hang on) with the lieblich stop but play just fine with the Bourdon stop.I crawled into the organ with the note on to find the pipe , under the primary was a dead mouse that had become solid; flicked it away and all was fine.
        Made 25.00 that day.The mouse carcass was keeping the primary wire from closing just enough that the reduced pressure would not release all the way on Lieblich.
        This would only be most successful on a 16' stop of only 30 or 32 notes.
        Cheers, Jerry F Bacon ♫♫
        Jerry F Bacon-Dallas,Tx

        Comment


        • #5
          In my limited exposure with this on Wicks organs, the chest is not on a separate wind supply, but rather there is just a standard offset on which there are simply two sets of valves with different bores- the "Lieblich" valves are much smaller in diameter, the "Subbass" valves are larger, thus letting more air through. Don't know how others do it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by pictureroll View Post
            This would only be most successful on a 16' stop of only 30 or 32 notes.
            Cheers, Jerry F Bacon ♫♫
            Jerry,
            Interesting story! Barring the superlative you used (most), does your comment mean that it would be unwise to have a Lieblich Gedackt 16' in a manual--say, as a 16' Lieblich Gedackt on the Swell to extend the Flute Chorus? Wouldn't that pose a problem for the organist if the soft Flute they'd chosen suddenly quits in the middle of the manual?

            I believe I played a 16' Lieblich Gedackt w/73 pipes on Bowdoin College Chapel's Austin (Op.1507). Also in Brattleboro, VT at the Estey Organ Museum, one of the pipe organs they have there (No.1814) has a 8' Lieblich Gedackt of 61 pipes in Swell as well (see attached photo).

            Michael
            Attached Files
            Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
            • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
            • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
            • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

            Comment


            • #7
              Lieblich Gedeckts may very well be individual ranks. Some English organs have choruses of them, typically in the Choir division. In English organs , and American organs in that tradition, the pipes are often small scale metal pipes with bored wood stoppers. One generality of the voicing is that the scales of the pipes, be they wood or metal, are small, the mouths are cut up quite high and the pipes are strongly winded to provide something of a rohrflute character.

              When in the Pedal the stop may have independent pipes or, most often in American organs, be borrowed from the Swell Bourdon.

              The Lieblich Gedeckt effect you refer to can be obtained as described above by a downward regulation of the pressure on the pedal Bourdon, also, occasionally, by a secondary feed to the individual pipes with separate chokes for regulation (also described above). The latter is likely to give a better effect as it is applied on a pipe by pipe basis. A third way of doing this I've come across in an organ by l'Orgue Canadien. In this organ the Bourdon pipes were fitted with attachments which when activated inserted themselves into the mouths of the pipes, reducing the breadth of the flue. All of these are going to affect the tuning of the pipes, proportionately more as one goes up the scale. This is why you never see these devices applied to manual ranks. The tuning would become intolerable in the treble range.

              Comment


              • #8
                in practice Lieblich gedeckt mechanisms are/were normally only on smaller organs (7 ranks or less). My Reuter 822 has such a mechanism..the device lowers the pressure on the 12 bottom notes ONLY.... in practice the entire rank is only "even" when the mechanism is engaged and the pressure is lower. (at least on my Reuter opus 822).

                It is VERY useful. I use the Lieblich mechanism almost all the time...the "Bourdon" (full strenth) is really too much for the gedeckt & strings on the organ, but when the Diapason or Oboe is used you really need the ooomph of the full strength bourdon to give a satisfactory 16' undergirding of tone.

                We put in a Reuter opus 711 organ in the chapel where the 822 came from, INTERESTINGLY it lacks a Lieblich Gedeckt mechanism..and I really miss it...as on that organ the bottom 12 notes are just always really too loud for softer registrations. I have purchased a lieblich mechanism for it, but have not yet got around to installing it...it will require some wiring trickery to make it work correctly, but It hink it can be done and would be worth installing!

                Comment


                • #9
                  This is turning into a fascinating thread! I guess I should have known there were (presumably) as many variants of obtaining the Lieblich Gedeckt as there are stars. I wonder if there were/was ever a stop(s) that were straight, and never derived from a Bourdon (like the Bowdoin Chapel Austin Organ) in America? What Westminster describes sounds somewhat like that, but the organs are mostly British.

                  I also wonder if there were combinations of Lieblich (Bourdon) pipes for the lower octave or two, then either some other mechanism or straight stops in the octaves above? Also, I wonder how the voicing varies from one country to another (i.e. Europe to America to Asia, etc.)?

                  Thanks so much for the posts so far. Y'all have been very informative to a 'lil country boy.

                  Michael

                  P.S. Could Haskelled pipes ever effectively be used for this purpose, or would they just end up with an overtone?
                  Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                  • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                  • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                  • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There are many examples of Lieblich Gedeckt's that are completely straight, some may be borrowed from other divisions.Most cases are one or the other, but a SMALL organ with room for only ONE stop in the pedal MIGHT make use of the Lieblich action.
                    Lieblich Gedeckts are stopped pipes, not open. Haskell pipes are open stops that make use of the haskell principle of highth reduction. Stopped pipes are half the highth of open pipes and can be mitered if necessary.

                    Jerry F Bacon-Dallas,Tx
                    Jerry F Bacon-Dallas,Tx

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have 3 complete Reuter organs... opus 822: Lieblich Gedeckt with mechanism to lower the pressure on bottom 12 notes only.
                      opus 711: No lieblich gedeckt, but really needs it.
                      opus 412: It had a complete independant Swell 16' Lieblich Gedeckt / Bourdon rank so it had 2 16's on the pedal...an independant 16' pedal Bourdon ..and a "borrowed" 16' Lieblich Gedeckt that is a separate swell rank but plays on the pedal at 16' and 8'.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pictureroll View Post
                        Haskell pipes are open stops that make use of the haskell principle of highth reduction.

                        Jerry F Bacon-Dallas,Tx
                        Although rarely encountered there were also Haskell patents for stopped pipes as well as reeds.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Westminster View Post
                          Although rarely encountered there were also Haskell patents for stopped pipes as well as reeds.
                          I remember seeing that somewhere with drawings of the concept. Must get tricky with the reeds--overtones and such.

                          My question stemmed from the fact that Haskelled pipes are already somewhat affected by the Haskelling process. I was wondering if a Lieblich applied to a Haskell pipe would/could be successful in any manner. I also wonder if wind pressure makes any difference.

                          I know Haskelled pipes are usually metal, but I've also seen drawings of wooden Haskelled pipes.

                          Michael
                          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                          • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I've seen a couple of examples of these stops in Buffalo. Two that I've looked at had a languid with two openings. Drawing the "Lieblich" stop would use only one opening, the Bourdon would use the other, larger opening, and both could be used when drawing both stops. Very interesting.

                            In the organ that I play, we have both a Bourdon and a Lieblich and they are two straight ranks.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have seen diagrams of Haskelled pipes, both metal and wood. My understanding is that the inserted pipe takes up half the cross-section and generally gives a brighter, more "stringy" sound than would be expected for the scale. I suppose they could be made "overscale" to compensate, but apparently this is seldom done.

                              David

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