Recommendations on improving a hybrid organ

[hartleymartin]

I'm looking at making a number of recommendations for a small-medium sized parish church which has a hybrid organ behind the sanctuary with a detached console. The Organ is a hybrid instrument. An electronic console controls a number of speakers and a few ranks of real pipes. The real pipes are open diapason, available and 8', 4' and 2' pitches as well as what sounds like a 3-rank mixture (although the switch is labelled "Fourniture IV") and a rather nice, if perhaps a little too powerful solo trumpet under the label "festival trumpet".

Not surprisiingly, the electronic sounds leave a lot to be desired. The worse problem is that there is distortion through the speakers and they cause a vibration of the wall panels near where they are mounted, creating an aweful buzzing and shuddering sound, rendering most of them completely useless.

I would recommend that more real pipes by added to the organ in the large space where the speakers are housed. My thoughts are to add a unified flute/stopped diapason rank of 97 pipes which would be available at 16', 8', 4', 2-2/3' and 2'. I might also ask for a rank of 61 pipes for a string stop also be added, but the flute stop would be essential. However, the idea would be to gain the greatest improvement for the least work (you know what most parish churches are like with funds). My inspiration is the old Moller Artiste, which was an organ built on similar principals of being an affordable instrument for smaller churches.

The existing stops:

Great Principal 8, 4, 2, Mixture
Swell Solo Trumpet (unenclosed)

I would look at having this expanded to add:

Flute at 8', 4', 2-2/3' made available on great

Flute at 8', 4', 2-2/3' and 2' made available on swell.

Flute at 16' and 8' made available on pedal

The existing diapason would also be made available on the pedal division at 8' and 4'

A string and chorus reed would be nice, but might be reserved as a later addition, depending on funds and room.

I am in two minds about asking that the festival trumpet be enclosed. It may prove useful to do so, but the diapasons are unenclosed and there may be limited benefits to enclosing the flute pipes (which are a much quieter stop).

Thoughts/ideas/recommendations? Does adding a 97-pipe flute rank sound like the best solution here?

[Havoc]

While I understand your desire for more pipes (I'd go further than your request) why not first try to get the electronics usable? Even if you can get more pipes (and do try!) they won't be there tomorrow. A lot will depend on funds of course but if you could get the electronics made you could get them to secure more funds. New amps, speakers(*) and a bucket of nails might be a first start. Could also give you time to prove them you're worth the investment.

An other option would be to look out for a second hand pipe organ.

A Fourniture IV would be a four rank mixture.

(*) cones with a rotted surround or mice eaten cones would just give such a distorted rattling sound.

[Jan Girardot]

Hi, Hartley;

What make and model organ is this, please?

. . . Jan

[Terpodion]

I had actually replied to this post but for some reason my text never showed up. But I'll paraphrase my response. Since then Havoc has made some of my points:
Yes, by all means get those rattles taken care of. Screws, (nails tend to work their way loose) felt and judiciously applied silicone can work miracles to silence objects going crazy from sympathetic vibration. I'd also thought of deteriorated woofer surrounds. If made of foam, they invariably rot and a voice coil banging against a magnet rattles more than a French 32' Bombarde.
I too am interested in exactly whose digital electronic tone generation system you are using. In my experience these things do best with flutes and strings. Were I in your shoes, I'd leave those voices to the electronics and develop a complete, straight, foundation chorus with pipes.
Another consideration is the amplifiers and speakers. Speakers do best in arrays when trying to reproduce convincing organ tone. Ideally, one speaker per rank but this is rarely done.
You should make sure that the amplifiers are up to snuff and are not being overdriven. High quality industrial power amplifiers such as Crown and Hafler are preferred as they are built for low distortion and reliability.
Putting a loud reed in a swell box is of course desirable. Swell boxes are expensive though. If you are to construct one, putting some of the speakers in there would also be desirable. However they should be the speakers for the voices that would not ordinarily be used with the loud reed.
Of course, the best sound still comes from real pipes and there are a lot of homeless organs floating around. Just last week I was offered a nice, recently releathered Tellers and an Odell tracker. I don't imagine a tracker would be appropriate for your situation but if the Tellers sounds like something that might interest you, let me know.
Cheers!

[michaelhoddy]

The problem with the "adding pipes" approach on a hybrid is it typically opens a big can of worms, unless there are already preparations for more pipes. Is there room for prepared-for ranks on the wind chest and in the relay/pipe driver boards? Is there physical space for this? Is the wind system up to the task? Is the existing action EP or electric (and if EP, is it unit so as to accommodate your stop list?)

If this is like most hybrids, all the pipes are likely on a common chest, so enclosing one of the ranks may not be an option. Driving the swell motor is a whole other issue too.

[hartleymartin]

The organ isn't so much a hybrid instrument as it is an electronic organ where some of the stop tabs control real pipes. I believe that preparations were made for additional pipes to be added to the instrument, as close inspection shows that there is a reasonably-size void behind one of the pipe facades (divided casework behind sanctuary, set into the back wall of the church).

I'll have to have a chat with the organ builder who put the arrangement together. I've just come back from a student conference where I was asked to take on the job of principal organist a couple of hours before the first service since the person they originally asked had called in sick that morning. Lucky for them I happened to bring a couple of folders of organ music, hymns and my organ shoes with me! During the conference I got to play on three different organs in three different chapels and churches. I've become more accustomed to direct electric action, and in fact now enjoy it since playing doesn't become harder when I couple divisions together!

I'm looking at having a rank of 97 flute pipes added. The console has two pedals. I've thought about having the flute rank and the festival trumpet enclosed in separate boxes and having the two pedals reflect this, although if it is all too expensive, I can live without enclosing any divisions. If I want a softer sound, I'll go from 8' + 4' flutes to 8' flute only! I'll need to consult with an organ builder to see if it is possible to get the festival trumpet enclosed.

With the addition of 97 pipes of Flute/Stopped Diapason tone, available from 16' to 2' pitches, I'd like to make the transition to all-real pipes. The only other thing I would add would be a chorus reed and maybe a string rank.

But if I only add the flute pipes this would be the stop list of the organ:

Upper Manual:
16', 8', 4', 2-2/3', 2' Flutes and 8' Festival Trumpet

Lower Manual:
16', 8', 4', 2-2/3' Flutes
8', 4', 2', Mixt. Diapason

Pedal Organ:
32' (resultant), 16', 8', 4' Flute
8', 4' Diapason (borrowed from Great) - Too much?

Couplers:
Sw Octave
Sw Unision Off
Sw Sub-Octave

Sw4 to Gt
Sw8 to Gt
Sw16 to Gt

Sw to Ped
Gt to Ped

The availability of real pipes from 8' all the way up to mixture would make octave couplers on the Gt redundant.

Is the resultant 32' overkill? It is only from a flute sound and not from diapasons, so wouldn't be as loud.

One of the reasons I want to make it possible to go with pipes-only is that the sounds coming out of the speakers are generally inferior in tone. The diapason pipes only serve to highlight just how out of place they are in comparison. What surprises me, though, is how the sounds from the electronic pedal division are actually quite good.

A string stop available at 8' and 4' would be great, as would a chorus reed of some sort. Oboe? Vox Humana?

[aaronz28]

sorry for the plug - but 2 words - "Covenant Organs"

just finished an instrument that is out of this world.

covenantrorgans.com
email me for more info
[email protected]

[Menschenstimme]

The Covenant website is fascinating. But a question arises. In one place it mentions:

"We have included a couple of stop lists for you to browse so please look at them and begin the dream of owning a custom Covenant instrument."

But I do not see where the stop lists are. Perhaps they are not posted yet?

[aaronz28]

the stop lists were taken down because we found other's "borrowing them" and using them in their quotes.

I just recorded one of our recent all Digital organs - if i had a way to post an MP3 (which i know is compromised audio quality) i would... i'll have to create a video and post to Youtube that way.
give me a few moments - it will be cobbled together, but you'll get the idea of the sound :D

Cheers

[aaronz28]

Found a way to host MP3s - This is my recent 76 stop 3 manual organ shown here - The recording was made at the dedication recital just 3 months ago.
We built the console as a spec replica of Aeolian-Skinner Opus 1324 - that I recently rescued from Detroit's Ford Auditorium. The audio clips are at the bottom.

a completed photo as well as an "in process" photo :D
this obviously was a COMPLETE instrument, but we can do augmentation to just about anything... even a B3 if we wanted :D




http://soundcloud.com/aaron-kaleniec...ns-on-the-star

http://soundcloud.com/aaron-kaleniec...de-westminster

http://soundcloud.com/aaron-kaleniecki/trumpet-tune

[therealtreywilliams]

I think the Resultant may not have the effect you are looking for--unless you have a significant number of pipe stops at 16', using the only one you have to form a resultant pitch is usually pretty unsatisfactory (just because of the physics).

Also, super/sub couplers on unit organs are usually fairly redundant (since pulling a flute at 8 and 4 is exactly the same as pulling an 8' flute with a super or a 4' with a sub). So, if you're paying extra for that wiring, you might want to reconsider whether it would even be worth it...Don't forget that labor isn't free by any means!

I think that what you need to go for in this situation is cost-effectiveness with your pipe-dollars. So, you want to try to get pipes that you will be able to use for a wide variety of registrations and which will be useful at a great many volume levels (and pitch levels). Is it going to be worth it for you to get a string rank to use at 8' (and maybe 4') which disappears in a mid-sized chorus registration? Especially if you can't afford expression. Similarly, is it going to be worth it to add a chorus reed when it might not be expressive and can be fairly pricey compared to other pipe ranks (not to mention difficult to get exactly right)? This is why I think it's pretty foolish to go with a celeste rank in organs under about 6 ranks because it has exactly ONE function which isn't missed in a good deal of literature. If you're explaining to a finance committee or another group of largely non-organists, you have to provide an easy way of understanding how cost-effective something will be to someone who doesn't know a dulciana from a diapason. Also, if you still use the existing electronic string ranks, that makes the need for the pipes even less.

Considering Expression, you have to be careful with it. Sometimes having an organ completely under one swell box can make it more frustrating--it makes it impossible to play anything against anything else. Perhaps having some expressive and others not, or else two separate swell boxes. It's also not all that cost-effective in a small organ to put one or two ranks under expression by themselves. If the solo trumpet is a problem, consider having it revoiced to be more mellow--they do sometimes take your hair off--that way there's one less mechanical thing to upkeep.

I do think adding a flute unit would be good, but perhaps a good second addition would be a second flute rank with a different voicing. E.G. getting a stopped flute unit and a chimney or open flute unit. This way, if you pull 8' from one rank and 4' from another, you've got less tone lock if you have octave intervals and the like. Plus you can use multiple ranks together at the same pitch level to boost volume. You can also use them together to create a wider variety of tones than just a single flute unit.

I might also suggest adding an independent 4' Octave in the Great. I always find it very noticeable when I play or listen to an organ with a principal chorus all from the same rank. Plus, this stop would be useful enough that it would be worth having just 61 (or even less with careful unit design) pipes. If you're really savvy, you could convince them to extend it to 16 and get an open 16' stop, although this is probably a pipe dream. ;)

You might also want to consider a 2 2/3-1 1/3 unit. This makes tuning problems in a Nazard derived from a straight rank go away, as well as providing flexibility--you can use them as solo stops as well as in a chorus. It's also much cheaper than a reed rank, a mixture, and just about any given 8' rank. But if you don't care for mutations, I understand.

Also, if I were organizing an enlargement, I would avoid just doing one rank at a time--if a builder can perform work for several ranks rather than just one, it'll be cheaper on labor and certain parts in the long run.

So, assuming you add, say 4 ranks (Gedeckt, Open Flute, Principal, Nazard), your specs might look something like this:

Swell (II):
8' Open Flute, 4' Gedeckt, 4' Principal (original), 2 2/3' Nazard, 2' Principal (new), 2' Open Flute, 1 1/3' Larigot, 1' Gedeckt 8' Festival Trumpet (original)
Plus whatever electronic voices remain. You could even do super/subs on here since they would do something.

Great (I):
8' Principal (original), 8' Gedeckt, 4' Principal (new), 4' Open Flute, 2 2/3' Quinte, 2' Principal (original), 2' Gedeckt, Mixture
Plus whatever electronics remain. I might do a super on here, plus obviously Sw/Gt

Pedal:
16' Subbass (new, from Gedeckt), 16' Principal (if you're lucky), 8' Open Flute, 8' Principal (existing), 4' Choral Bass (new), 4' Gedeckt
Definitely include electronic voices here. I would do couplers from both divisions at 8' and 4'.

Obviously, it would be really easy to not include the 2 2/3' rank, as well as the new principal. Still, I think that this would be more satisfactory than adding a single flute unit.