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  • Unification Of Pipes

    Does anyone have any documents that explain how to unify a rank of pipes I am in the process of aquiring a 16 8 4 2 principal, and need to know where to set the unification at for each pitch. I am looking to get 16, 10 2/3, 8, 4, 2 2/3, and 2 out of this rank. I will be getting other ranks so any documents or instruction would be great. Thanks Chris

  • #2
    Re: Unification Of Pipes

    Hello Chris,

    First off, don't unify a principal at 10 2/3 or 2 2/3'. Unify a flute rank at those pitches!

    Second, you need to better explain your situation with more detail. Are you wanting to wire this up with an old relay system (like on NYCFarmBoy's Reuter) or use new electronics with circut boards? Do you have a console, chests, anything yet?

    Thanks.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Unification Of Pipes



      The organ i am aquiring will be wired to a solid state control system with midi and digital pipe additions. I have everything that i need to implement the system. I was just curious as to unification and how best to get the most out of 4 ranks. I have Flute 16-2 97 notes and Principal 8-4 73 Notes 45 scaleString 8-4 73 notes and a Vox Humana 8-4 73 Notes. I am looking for a cheap/free 2' principal or 12 note extension as well as Mitered/Haskelled 16' Principal.




      Chris

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Unification Of Pipes

        Chris, Soundboardude is right. It's better to avoid deriving any mutations (anything non-unison such as 10 2/3', 5 1/3', 2 2/3', or 1 3/5') if you can, the reason being that the tuning of any mutation derived from a unison stop will not be correct.

        In a straight chorus, mutations are tuned "dead in" , as opposed to the ususal relationship of harmonic intervals within an octave of pipes, where the interval will be slightly "off", depending on the harmonic interval and temperament used.

        With 97 notes, your flute can obviously be used at 16, 8, 4 and 2. You can (and some do) experiment with deriving a 2 2/3 from this stop, so long as you do not mind hearing the fifths slightly out of tune. If you derive additional mutations, the effect will be coumpunded, and likely unpleasant.

        Keyboard trader and OCH are good places to look for used pipework.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Unification Of Pipes

          Hi there,

          Here's my guess as to a stoplist...

          Manual I

          8' Principal
          8' Flute
          4' String
          4' Flute
          2' Principal (Independent rank if you can get it)

          Manual II

          8' String
          8' Flute
          4' String
          4' Flute
          2' Flute
          8' Vox Humana

          Pedal

          16' Flute
          8' Principal
          8' Flute
          4' Principal
          4' Flute

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Unification Of Pipes

            My organ is a unified instrument originally designed that way. It has both 2 2/3 and 1 3/5 pitches taken from the open flute rank. This rank is softer than the diapason. I find these pitches very useful in imparting color especially for a solo line. I use the 2 2/3 quite a lot, the 1 3/5 less. A cornet absolutely requires these pitches, also some french music is enhanced by the 1 3/5. The fact that these are tuned to the temped scale does not seem to diminish their value as the result is very similar to playing a chord directly. Of course including separate ranks tuned absolutely on pitch would make the effect better, especially the 1 3/5 which is more noticably off pitch than the 2 2/3. The foundation rank with which the mutations are used should be louder than the mutation rank, otherwise the effect becomes more like the "screaming" mixtures referred to in other posts.

            My vote is "include these stops" as they are occasionally very useful.
            Allan

            My home organ
            Style D Wurlitzer pipe organ
            http://bluemoonwalkinghorses.com/Sty...tion5_rev3.htm
            Five Newfoundland dogs
            Sixteen Tennessee walking horseshoes

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Unification Of Pipes

              I'm with AllanP... unify to the max and enjoy. the mutations will not be used all the time and the tuning issue is not that big a deal (in my opinion anyhow).

              As I understand it this is for a home organ? With space being such a important consideration on this type of organ I don't understand why someone would not unify to be honest... (YES I know for a large church with the funding for the appropriate ranks and space etc then its a different story)

              My Reuter has 5 ranks: Gedeckt 97 pipes, Diapason 73 pipes, Oboe 73 pipes, Dulciana 73 pipes, and Salicional 73 pipes. Everything is unified 16/8/4 on the manuals (reserving the Diapasons unification for the Great only)...

              in addition I have a 1 3/5' unified from the salicional.. a quasi biting Tierce.

              it breaks down as:

              Dulciana - 16', 8', 4'
              Salicional - 16', 8', 4', 1 3/5'
              Diapason - 16', 8', 4', 2'
              Oboe - 16', 8', 4'
              Gedeckt - 32', 16', 8', 4', 2 2/3', 2', 1 1/3', 1'


              the 32' gedeckts are resultants (I have a wind mechanism that lowers the pressure for a "lieblich" mode for both the 32' and 16' stops on the Gedeckt.

              The 1 1/3' Larigot is used only on occasion but its nice to have sometimes.

              Interestingly at least for me, the 1' Sifflote unified from the Gedeckt's is a unit stop I use all the time. It adds some "ice" top the top which is quite nice at times. I actually use that stop quite often. in fact more than the 2' Gedeckt. The top octave can be folded back from the octave below if you don't have the pipes. (I only have the pipes up to a 2' flute).

              I thought all of this would be a horrible tuning issue and that I'd not like it but experience shows it to honestly not be a issue that I thought it might. Also depends on what you are doing with them.. I generally use the mutations only for a single note melody when the tuning issue is not noticble at all.....They are not perfect mutations for chords where you do notice the tuning issue a bit, but its 100% better than no mutations at all!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Unification Of Pipes



                Klein's suggested disposition is conservative, and good for an organ in a public place that will be visited by inexperienced organists who tend to engage every stop and play what happens. In a home installation, I would say put every variation of every rank that you have room on your stop rail for - How many can you handle anyway? You can use what works and ignore what doesn't.[*] How about a Cornet based on the Vox? I've never heard one, but it might be an interesting trompette substitute. Think out of the box!




                Here is a broaderdisposition, though far from maximun:




                Pedal: Flute 16' Princ 8', Fl 8' princ 5 1/3' Str 4' Fl 4' Princ 2', Vox 8' Vox 4' ,Sw-Ped. Gt.-Ped.




                Great: Str 16', Princ 8', Fl 8', Str 8', Princ 4', Fl 4' Princ 2 2/3', Princ 2', Fl 1 1/3' Vox 8', Clarinet (fl III)Sw-Gt.




                Swell: Fl 16', Fl 8', Str 8', Fl 4' Str 4' Fl 2 2/3' Fl 2' Fl 1 3/5' Vox 16', Vox 8', Vox 4'. Oboe (fl IV), Tremelo.[]




                Lee

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Unification Of Pipes



                  I have a 3 manual 5 division organ with76 Stops and 27 Couplers. The plan was to use the Pipes on the great and partly on the pedal. They will be enclosed and augmented by digital ranks using hauptwerk. The great is 20 Stops, pedal 15, Choir 12, Swell 21, and Solo is 10. The swell, choir and solo will be under there own expression and the great and ped will express together. Below is what I was thinking for a stop list: The solo is not listed since i have not even come up with a dispostion for that yet (more in prep for future expansion).The couplers which are available at 16 8 4. Eventually this organ will probably be moved to the church, (less the pipes] so those stops will become digital. There is an option though to turn the pipes off and then the pipe stops will route to hauptwerk, making the entire organ digital.


























































































































































































































































































                  Tremulant Choir
                  Spitzflote 1 Choir
                  Spitzflote 2 Choir
                  Nazard 2 2/3 Choir
                  Nachthorn 4 Choir
                  Gedackt 8 Choir
                  Cymbal 3 Choir
                  principal 4 Choir
                  Oboe 8 Choir
                  Gamba 8 Choir
                  Gamba Celeste 8 Choir
                  Gamba 16 Choir
                  Chimes Great
                  Tremulant Great
                  Spitzflote Pipe 2 Great
                  Nazard Pipe 2 2/3 Great
                  Spitzflote Pipe 4 Great
                  Gedackt Pipe 8 Great
                  Bourdon Pipe 16 Great
                  principal 2 Great
                  Quinte 2 2/3 Great
                  Cymbal III 3 Great
                  Plein Jeu IV 4 Great
                  Octave Pipe 4 Great
                  principal Pipe 8 Great
                  Vox Humana Pipe 4 Great
                  Festival Trumpet 8 Great
                  Vox Humana Pipe 8 Great
                  Bomabarde 16 Great
                  Gemshorn Pipe 4 Great
                  Gemshorn Pipe 8 Great
                  Gemshorn Celeste 8 Great
                  Spitzflote 4 Pedal
                  Bourdon Pipe 8 Pedal
                  Sub-bass Pipe 16 Pedal
                  Contra-Bass 32 Pedal
                  Mixture 3 Pedal
                  principal 4 Pedal
                  Resultant Pipe 32 Pedal
                  Octave pipe 8 Pedal
                  principal pipe 16 Pedal
                  principal 32 Pedal
                  Bombarde 8 Pedal
                  Bomabarde 16 Pedal
                  Contra Bombarde 32 Pedal
                  Gamba 8 Pedal
                  Contra Gambe 16 Pedal
                  Chimes Swell
                  Tremulant Swell
                  Siffolet 1 Swell
                  Tierce 1 1/3 Swell
                  Largiot 1 3/5 Swell
                  Spitzflote 2 Swell
                  Nazard 2 2/3 Swell
                  Spitzflote 4 Swell
                  Flute Chiminnee 8 Swell
                  Gedackt 8 Swell
                  Octave 2 Swell
                  principal 4 Swell
                  Mixture 4 Swell
                  principal 8 Swell
                  Oboe 4 Swell
                  Oboe 8 Swell
                  Oboe 16 Swell
                  Unda Maris 4 Swell
                  Unda Maris 8 Swell
                  FluteCeleste 8 Swell
                  Unda Maris 16 Swell

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Unification Of Pipes



                    Isn't this a little large for a Hauptwerk organ? Maybe it's just because I'm not familiar with it but these seems a little oversized.




                    A seperate thought ... since this is a unification thread ... can you sort out your piped stops and show how you are unifying them? I'm also curious why you list the 2 2/3 twice on the Great. Also, with 3 32' stops why bother adding the resultant in as well? Lastly, why does a 70+ stop organ need super and sub couplers? Seems like overkill. I'm not a builder or expert ... but this seems weird to me.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Unification Of Pipes



                      I may need to use 2 computers for hautpwerk, we shall see.As far as the 2 2/3 i missed that when i redid the list awhile back.It should be a 1 1/3. The contra bass 32 is not included in the final stop list but the prin 32 and bombarde 32 will remain as well as the resultant. The couplers are for convience purposes and a lot of the music I have call for sub and super couplers so they are there. The pipes are listed below; A=97 NOTE FLUTE B=PRINCIPAL 73 NOTES C=VOX AT 73 NOTES AND D=STRING 73 NOTES. The stops blue are for the Great and the Stops an Green are for Pedal.

























































                      Spitzflote




                      largiot




                      2




                      1 1/3




                      A




                      A

                      Nazard 2 2/3 A
                      Spitzflote 4 A
                      Gedackt 8 A
                      Bourdon 16 A



                      ?SUPER OCTAVE?




                      Octave




                      2




                      4




                      B




                      B

                      principal 8 B
                      Vox Humana 4 C
                      Vox Humana 8 C
                      Gemshorn 4 D
                      Gemshorn 8 D


































                      Spitzflote 4 A
                      Bourdon 8 A
                      Sub-bass 16 A
                      Resultant 32 A
                      Octave 8 B
                      GEMSHORN 8 D
                      principal 4 B




                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Unification Of Pipes



                        Thank you, much easier to read. I'd throw the 2' Super Octave on those principals and fold the top octave back. Just realizing though that the super-coupler will create problems if you take it very high with that stop. Or you could just tack on the extra pipes ... but that always means more $$.




                        You could even have a nice little all pipe instrument there (although Hauptwerk can certainly help). I'd take it and go something like this:




                        Swell: 8 Flute, 8 String, 4 Flute, 4 String, 2 Flute, 1 1/3 Larigot, 8 Reed, 4 Reed




                        Great: 8 Principal, 8 flute, 8 String, 4 Principal, 4 flute,2 2/3 Nasard, 2 flute




                        Pedal: 16' Flute, 8 Flute, 8 Principal




                        (ahem, if you feel the need to laugh at that please do. I believe that is the first spec I've tried to think of on my own)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Unification Of Pipes



                          Thats stop list would work very well. I am planning on visiting the local organ tuners who has a warehouse full of pipe work to see what I can swindle from him. I am sure he has got some reeds and flues laying around that shop.




                          The Super Octave would work since I can choose what couples with the sub/super couplers. It is a digital system after all, Thank God for that.

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