Forum Top Banner Ad

Collapse

Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Physics of organ tuning

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Physics of organ tuning

    .

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Physics of organ tuning

      [quote user="soubasse32"]


      French reeds are not necessarily more prone to pitch problems. I have a feeling you have been listening to recordings of French organs? If so,the out-of-tuneness you may hearhas more to do withhow often organsin French churches get tuned.




      Or, the season the recording was made...




      [/quote]




      Or the temperament the organ was tuned to. It's not uncommon to have European organs using a non-equal temperament, which to many Western ears sounds out of tune.




      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Physics of organ tuning

        .

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Physics of organ tuning

          [quote user="acc"][quote user="radagast"]


          Or the temperament the organ was tuned to. It's not uncommon to have European organs using a non-equal temperament, which to many Western ears sounds out of tune.




          [/quote]




          Yes, but is there a difference between French and English temperaments? It seems to me that equal temperament became standard in both countries somewhere during the 19th century.

          [/quote]




          To answer your question, no. However, I don't believe everyone in the world uses equal temperament, however. Some churches like a more "authentic" historical tuning.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Physics of organ tuning

            .

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Physics of organ tuning

              If it was the temperament, then it would be the same for reeds or labials. Unless it is more noticable with the reeds.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Physics of organ tuning



                Re: French organs having more reeds than British...




                My thought is that if you look at a typical British pedal division, you will often see some unification and duplexing:




                32 Contra Trombone




                16 Trombone (ext)




                16 Posaune (from Swell)




                8 Tromba (ext)




                4 Clarion (ext)




                (66 pipes on a 30-note pedalboard)




                A Frenchpedal divisionoften lookslike this:




                32 Contre bombarde




                16 Bombarde




                8 Trompette




                4 Clairon




                (all independent - 120 pipeson a 30-note pedalboard)




                The speclooks smaller on paper, but is almost twice the size.




                And to the point of the matter: there are more pipes to go out of tune.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Physics of organ tuning

                  .

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Physics of organ tuning

                    [quote user="acc"][quote user="soubasse32"]


                    Oh one other thought - French organs have many batteries of reed stops; Pedal reed stops are often independent. With all of those reed pipes, there's bound to be some that are just "out" on any given day!




                    [/quote]

                    French reeds tend to have a more powerful voicing, but I don't have the impression that French organs have more reeds than English organs (anybody did some serious statistical comparisons?).

                    And when, for once, you do hear an English organ with out-of-tune reeds - well, believe me, it sounds just as awful.

                    [/quote]




                    Actually, I'll have to concur, that is, if we're going to be specific. When I say french I refer primarily to the Cavaille-Coll organs. In CC organs, the manual reeds, minus the chamades are voiced at a nice mezzo-forte to forte level; only the pedal reeds are voiced at double forte. And the other thing to remember in CC organs is that all manual stops are voiced at a single level, that same mezzo-forte to forte level. The CC organ builds power through the addition of more and more voices of the same dynamic level. The other organs of the world build more or less by starting with quiet muted stops and progressively adding louder stops which swamp the tone of the quieter ones. With a CC organ you can play quiet on any stop you like the tonality of, on others, not so.




                    About tuning. The tuning of these French organs is admirably fairly even. The slight out of tune-ness at the extremes isn't much noticeable. I have heard many more English and American organs that are out of tune than I ever have French.




                    -A

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Physics of organ tuning



                      Completely agree with Alex re: the voicing and tuning ofC-C organs.




                      Disagree with acc about unification.




                      My point is that any heavily unified organwill have less reed pipes- thelogical conclusion is that when the organ starts to drift out of tune you will notice it more if there happen to be120 pedal reed pipes than if there are 66. There is statistically more possibility for anyone(or more)of them to be out of tune, and thus noticeable.




                      That was my point. Perhaps it is a different way of looking at the problem.




                      I findout-of-tune mixtures in French organs to be more of an issue than the reed tuning.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Physics of organ tuning

                        The difference between 4 pipes sounding in a unified organ and in one with separate ranks is that in the unified, it are 4 identical voiced pipes playing, not 4 different ones. It will sound louderbut it won't have a different sound.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Physics of organ tuning

                          .

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Physics of organ tuning


                            This might be a dumb question, but I always wanted to know.

                            What was the reference pitch that was used to tune instruments centuries ago, before we could measure 440 like we do? What did they use for pitch, and how was it made a standard?

                            How did they know they were tuning a C to a C, without it actually being a G# for example.


                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Physics of organ tuning



                              Those rare individuals with perfect pitch shaved off slivers of metal from rods that could make a ringing tone untill their talented ears told them they had rung the note they desired, and gave them to those of us who could only tune by listening to beats between notes.




                              When the dinosaurs migrated south for the winter and we could play our blockwerk organs and hydrauluses without attracting their attention,the buildersand composers argued over tuning configuration untill pythagorean gave way to meantone and finally to equal temperment soBach couldwrite The Well Tempered Clavier . [I]




                              Lee

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Physics of organ tuning

                                ACC was from the 1840s to 1890s specifically 1898 when he sold to C. Mutin. Which English builders are you comparing to when you say English organs?

                                If you have in mind 20th century organs like Willis or Harrisons then is it apples to oranges?

                                How much wind did ACC have to use in his work?
                                Could ne generate great power? His reeds are raucous and blatant noisy not refined or restrained. They overpower all flues including mixtures. So for volume you would rely on choruses of reeds from Positif to Recit to Grand orgue to Bombarde etc and Pedale.

                                English organs had DIAPASONS , TROMBAS, TUBAS, CORNOPEANS, HARMONICS IV, and lots of other fat sounds and thick ones. Basses were thunderous open woods 32 16 and trombones ophicleides of great fundamental.

                                The English and the French ACC are very different creations.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X