How many ranks would be needed for a small unified pipe organ with these stops?

[hartleymartin]

If going into a church, it would be highly desirable to have the 8' foundation stops independent ranks. The 4' and 2' ranks work well unified.

A separate rank for the 2-2/3' is desirable. From this rank you can also get a 1-1/3' which you may find useful. I would also recommend a separate rank for the 1-3/5'.

Think about getting the pedal reed at 4' It won't require any more pipes, and will allow you to play cantus firmus in chorales.

[m&m's]

In reading another site about selecting ranks for a home organ, it was strongly suggested that the most important ranks be included first. The luxury ranks that would be nice but not used very often should be omitted until the essential ranks are included.

You would think that this would be obvious, but I have seen church installations that broke this rule. I once played one that had only one reed, an 8' trumpet, in the Pedal! The church was not large, but could afford a complete organ, but they allowed the current organist to design it the way he wanted it, instead of thinking about the next organist, who might want to do more than simply pedal Cantus Firmus!

In reading another site about selecting ranks for a home organ, it was strongly suggested that the most important ranks be included first. The luxury ranks that would be nice but not used very often should be omitted until the essential ranks are included.

[myorgan]

As a manual have 61 keys, do that mean there have to be 61 pipes? Do that mean for every rank there have to be 61 pipes? Can someone perhaps explain please?

John,

May I suggest you check the link at this thread? SubBase has given you a good definition, as well as providing all the variations to that answer. Hopefully the link in my previous post in another thread will provide the information you seek.

http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...l=1#post352103

Michael

[SubBase]

As a manual have 61 keys, do that mean there have to be 61 pipes? Do that mean for every rank there have to be 61 pipes? Can someone perhaps explain please?

As I understand it, in a unified organ, it's typical to have pipes number 73 or 85 to a rank so that it can be played at 16ft and 4ft pitch without missing low and high octaves. The 8ft rank uses just the "middle" 61 notes. Same would apply, naturally, to a 4ft rank being expended with 12 more pipes to serve as a 2ft if desired.
Casey

[Johnallen]

As a manual have 61 keys, do that mean there have to be 61 pipes? Do that mean for every rank there have to be 61 pipes? Can someone perhaps explain please?

[james]

My all of this is so educational.

I have really enjoyed a small pipe organ I have been hearing on YouTube. David Christensen is playing a small organ that a church has rebuilt with a few ranks. If any of you get a chance to to hear this nice organ it is worth the time. The piece I am listening to now is Two Choral Preludes from the Little Organ Book - J. S. Bach There is a stop list below the bit of info about this organ.

Can any of you tell me how many ranks are needed to form those stops? It appears the organ has 3 ranks of Principal, Gedeckt, and Dulzian pipes. Also the mutations are 2 2/3' and 1 3/5'. Apparently one of the mutations comes from the Flute rank, and the other from the Principal rank. The only addition I would add to this stop list would be a Bourdon 16' in the Swell.

James

[toodles]

Theatre organs used unified ranks for flute/tibia mutations, and although not ideal, it's been done often. I am not fond of Tierces, but that's my ears. I like a 1-1/3 stop--used with an 8' flute, it can be a very delicate but bright combination.

An oboe is probably a more useful stop in a home organ, but an organ oboe is really just a small scaled trumpet. I'd prefer a Krummhorn, yes, it is distinctive, but most are usually voiced to allow good blend.

The problem in any small unit pipe organ is having a stop for accompaniment on the Great with the Swell solo registrations. The typical open diapason is probably too loud. A soft open flute, dulciana, or gemshorn would be valuable for this purpose.

For a luxury stop, I'd add a flute celeste to the great--most everyone will probably think a string celeste should be the 1st celeste on an organ, but I think the flute celeste is a better option. It's soft enough and more gentle than the string and let's the organ purr and whisper. The string celeste is too obvious to perform those functions.

[Plein Jeu]

Dear James (and other Members following this thread)

I tend to agree that you should try to keep your mutations pure. A few years ago I derived a Tierce 1 3/5 from the stopped flute rank of my one practice organ. Nowadays I hardly ever use it. The difference in Cents (400 derived vs 386 pure) is quite big, where-as with a derived Nazard 2 2/3 it isn't that big (700 derived vs 702 pure).

I've managed to rescue a Nazard 2 2/3 -> 1 1/3 and a Tierce 1 3/5 from an organ totally destroyed by water damage and wood borer. These ranks are of spotted metal and were made by Laukhuff - I would love to add them to my residence instrument at some stage.

Somewhere in the past, if I'm not mistaking, I read in one of these threads about another "trick":

One takes a String rank, from 8' TC all the way up with enough pipes to also have a 1 3/5'. One then tunes the 1 3/5 pure, so when it gets used as a Tierce 1 3/5, you have a pure mutation. However, if it gets drawn at 8', it can be used as a Voix Celeste 8' TC together with another string rank.

I've never came across a setup like the one described above. I don't even know if it will be very successful. My Laukhuff-Tierce is quite a wide-scaled flute, so I assume it's already dodgy using a String-rank for a Tierce?

If you have a second flute rank, or maybe a Gemshorn like some of the other members suggested, and your mutations are pure, you should be able to create quite a nice Cornet V-effect, in lieu of a real reed. Okay, also depending on the voicing, room acoustics, etc. At my parents' church, one can compose a beautiful Cornet V on their EF Walcker organ by selecting 5 individual stops on the Swell. During my first practice session at the church, I've selected the 5 individual stops as the CF for my Bach-piece. I've stopped two or three times, checking to see if I've accidentally also selected a swell reed!!!

If your suggested disposition is for a residence instrument, the Principal 16 bottom octave-extension may take up quite a lot of space. Well, if you have sufficient space and nice acoustics for the sound to bloom, by all means. I've also salvaged a Haskell bottom octave of a Principal 16' from that same organ. I'm not sure how a Haskelled Principal 16' will sound (I assume it will be more stringy?) but it does take up far less space. When I find the time, I guess I must plant them on an offset and hook it up to my residence instrument to experiment and evaluate the effect.

Best wishes.

PJ

- - - Updated - - -

Dear James (and other Members following this thread)

I tend to agree that you should try to keep your mutations pure. A few years ago I derived a Tierce 1 3/5 from the stopped flute rank of my one practice organ. Nowadays I hardly ever use it. The difference in Cents (400 derived vs 386 pure) is quite big, where-as with a derived Nazard 2 2/3 it isn't that big (700 derived vs 702 pure).

I've managed to rescue a Nazard 2 2/3 -> 1 1/3 and a Tierce 1 3/5 from an organ totally destroyed by water damage and wood borer. These ranks are of spotted metal and were made by Laukhuff - I would love to add them to my residence instrument at some stage.

Somewhere in the past, if I'm not mistaking, I read in one of these threads about another "trick":

One takes a String rank, from 8' TC all the way up with enough pipes to also have a 1 3/5'. One then tunes the 1 3/5 pure, so when it gets used as a Tierce 1 3/5, you have a pure mutation. However, if it gets drawn at 8', it can be used as a Voix Celeste 8' TC together with another string rank.

I've never came across a setup like the one described above. I don't even know if it will be very successful. My Laukhuff-Tierce is quite a wide-scaled flute, so I assume it's already dodgy using a String-rank for a Tierce?

If you have a second flute rank, or maybe a Gemshorn like some of the other members suggested, and your mutations are pure, you should be able to create quite a nice Cornet V-effect, in lieu of a real reed. Okay, also depending on the voicing, room acoustics, etc. At my parents' church, one can compose a beautiful Cornet V on their EF Walcker organ by selecting 5 individual stops on the Swell. During my first practice session at the church, I've selected the 5 individual stops as the CF for my Bach-piece. I've stopped two or three times, checking to see if I've accidentally also selected a swell reed!!!

If your suggested disposition is for a residence instrument, the Principal 16 bottom octave-extension may take up quite a lot of space. Well, if you have sufficient space and nice acoustics for the sound to bloom, by all means. I've also salvaged a Haskell bottom octave of a Principal 16' from that same organ. I'm not sure how a Haskelled Principal 16' will sound (I assume it will be more stringy?) but it does take up far less space. When I find the time, I guess I must plant them on an offset and hook it up to my residence instrument to experiment and evaluate the effect.

Best wishes.

PJ

I occasionally use the 1 3/5 as part of a corner without triumphant and find it ok. Definitely the 1 3/5 I more out of tune than the 2 2/3 so is not used as much. It is what I have so that is what is used, adding a real 1 3/5 would not be useful enough for the music that I mostly play.

As observed above, my organ is a home Wurlitzer which is used for popular music and light classics. The stops described in my post serve me quite well for both types of music. The downside of the extensive unification is that the organist must carefully select stops that cause missing notes. This in some ways is an advantage that it is possible to create a wide range of tone colors to add interest to playing.

[andyg]

If it hasn't already been said, I think most theatre organists would be perfectly satisfied with it, David. By the time you've added the tremulants, any undesirable beats are pretty much hidden. Add some other stops and they're even more hidden.

Classical, ah, that's a different story, but Allan is describing a home Wurlitzer.

[davidecasteel]

"Donaldson" stop? Do you mean "Diapason"?

I'm surprised that you are satisfied with the unified 1 3/5' stop--most organists find that mutation derived from even-tempered octave ranks unsatisfactory.

David

My residence organ has most of the features you require using 6 ranks.
Flute (open after the first 30 notes) 16, 8, 4, 2 2/3, 2, 1 3/5 on great
8, 4, 2 on swell
16, 8 on pedal
Stopped flute. 16(tc), 8, 4 on great
8, 4. On swell
8 on pedal
String. 8, 4 on great
8, 4 on swell
8 on pedal
Donaldson 16, 8, 4 on great
8, 4 on swell
16, 8 on pedal
Trumpet. 16(tc), 8 on great
8 on swell
8 on pedal
Vox Humana. 16(tc), 8. On great
16(tc), 8, 4 on swell
The trumpet is a mild tonality that blends well with the flutes.
A mixture effect can be obtained using the string 4, flute 2 2/3, 2.

By appropriate selection of stops, it is possible to have nice sounding ensembles on each manual that are independent.
The pedal has two manual to pedal couplers to be able to get a bigger pedal.

[trompette en chamade]

Flutes from 16' through 2' with 2 2/3' and 1 3/5' on the SW

To echo some of the previous posts, I'd avoid derived mutations. While you can possibly get away with a unified Nazard at 2-2/3', depending on your tolerance for ill tuning, you cannot get away with a Tierce tuned to equally-tempered thirds.

A mutation is not "just another pitch sounding at the twelfth or seventeenth." It is meant to meld into the foundation pitch, to become one in a synthesized timbre. Its pitch must interlock with the overtones of the foundation tone. To do this, it must be perfectly, purely in tune. Any quint mutation is tuned beat-free in pure fifths against the foundation pitch, and tierces are tuned in pure thirds, which are a substantial 14 cents flatter than equally tempered thirds. If you use derived mutations, you'll never achieve synthesis. The tierce, especially, will be intolerable.

A second factor is also necessary. The mutation pitch must be softer than the foundation, which you cannot achieve from a unit rank. At an equal volume level, they are distasteful. Additionally, mutations often use a different pipe form to insure best blend and synthesis.

You can, of course, use a 73-note rank to create a purely-tuned mutation at both 2-2/3 and 1-1/3.


Diapason 16' through 2' and 1 1/3' on the GT

You can do 16-2 with a 97 note rank. You will have voice leading problems, most noticeable in counterpoint. You'll reach for a top "C," for example, and it won't articulate because it's already being used by a "C" in the texture an octave lower, in the 2' stop. The net result is that sometimes notes go missing.

This can be minimized by less unification...you can unify 16-4 and 8-2 in two separate ranks, but each of these will need 85 pipes.

If this is a residence organ, the 16' Diapason doesn't need to be very strong, and unifying it from the one mega-Diapason rank will likely make it overwhelming when drawn in chorus. This is similar in principle to the mutations needing to be softer.

A 1-1/3' Octave Quint will again be out of tune if derived. I like having a 2-2/3 Twelfth and a 1/1-3 available. It gives you some of the sparkle of a mixture to have the 1-1/3 up there.


A Flute 8' on the GT

One 61-pipe rank, your choice, but I'd make it far different from the Swell unit flute.


Trumpet 8' on the SW

Again, 61 pipes. An assertive Oboe is nice for a small instrument, serving as a solo stop under expression, a chorus reed, and something of a Trumpet with the shades open. A true Trumpet, unless specifically scaled and voiced for a residence organ, can easily be intolerable. Way intolerable.


Pedals at Diapason 16' Flute 16' Flute 8'

In a bigger organ, the 16' Pedal Diapason will be a larger scale, more powerful than the 16' Great Diapason. Here, you might be able to get away with duplexing them. I would definitely duplex the Swell unit flute at 16 and 8 (and probably 4), as well as adding GT-PED and SW-PED couplers at 8 and 4.


Minimums, for me: 6 ranks, 438 (450) pipes

Flutes from 16' through 2' with 2 2/3' and 1 3/5' on the SW
* 97 pipe unit flute
* 61 pipe Nazard, or 73 pipes to include 1-1/3'
* 61 pipe Tierce

Diapason 16' through 2' on the GT
* 97 pipe Diapason (if you really want open pipes all the way down to 16'...they're 18 feet long if unmitered)

A Flute 8' on the GT
* 61 pipes

Trumpet 8' on the SW [or Oboe]
* 61 pipes

Pedals at Diapason 16' Flute 16' Flute 8'
Duplex all of it


If I were doing this, I'd scrounge at least a string and celeste. The Swell is all flute and the Great has principals and one flute. I want more variety. While the string usually lives in the Swell, I think I'd put this one in the Great, since you have a lot of solo flute color in the Swell with the mutations. Better yet, I'd put the strings on a unit chest and make them playable from both manuals, usable as accompaniment under any of the myriad flutes or the diapasons.

If you really want to conserve pipework, you could make your flute unit playable from both manuals, eliminating the Great flute. Unless that Great stop is clearly different in character, I'd rather duplex the unit flute and put something contrasting in place of the Great flute.

I'd add a 73-note 2-2/3 & 1-1/3 Quint to the Great, myself, voiced as mutations for the Diapasons.

[michaelhoddy]

Unified mutations are somewhat more tolerable in a large room with good acoustics where distance and reverberation mellows the tuning and scaling issues, but in a residence organ, they'd be horribly screechy and annoying. Even if you do a TC rank for the mutation to save money, it's a better and far more usable choice.

And if it were me, I'd much rather have another independent 8' or 4' rank on such a small organ than a mutation of any stripe. The additional rank will get a lot more use and provide a lot more color. A string or gemshorn would be a nice addition.

Also, at least in new pipes, the 12 notes of your 16' pedal diapason extension are by themselves at least if not more costly than a whole additional 8' rank somewhere else in the organ.