Ludwigtone

[pianoman96]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone can provide any information about the construction or history of the Ludwigtone besides that which is already on the Encyclopedia of Organ Stops. I am going to attempt to re-create one using OSI's scaling for it. But I'd like to learn all I can about it before attempting this.

Thanks!

[microlevel]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone can provide any information about the construction or history of the Ludwigtone besides that which is already on the Encyclopedia of Organ Stops. I am going to attempt to re-create one using OSI's scaling for it. But I'd like to learn all I can about it before attempting this.

Thanks!

Hi - I noticed your request at the side of the page while looking through some postings yesterday in the Hammond Organ section. The term Ludwigtone sounded so familiar to me and yet I couldn't quite recall why. I really don't have much information to forward to you except to say I find an illustration (poor quality) and brief description of it in the book, The Contemporary American Organ by William H. Barnes, on page 35. Perhaps you already have this book which is an old and popular reference to organ enthusiasts. If not, I will be happy to try and scan the image and/or copy the description and send it to you. Just send me a message. Btw, I have some experience in pipe organ maintenance having rebuilt and owned a couple of them over the years and also maintaining a couple of church instruments. However, I have never attempted pipe-building.
Good luck with that undertaking. I would be so curious to hear Ludwigtone as the description sounds so unique. Mark

[Terpodion]

My thoughts on the Ludwigtone:

It is a cost / space saving stop; one rank of pipes function as two. Good in theory, not so much in practicality.

Problems:

1. Complexity of construction. The labor and materials to make a rank with a divider wall down the middle, a second mouth and set of tuners almost offsets the savings of construction of a single rank.
2. It is a quite a bit larger in physical size than a single rank. Instead of taking up the space of one rank, it takes up approximately the space occupied by 1.5 rank particularly considering the speaking room needed by the second mouth.
3. Functionality. Designed to function as a celeste, it is only capable of functioning as a very fast celeste. It is impossible to tune it to beat slowly and this may not please the ears of many. This is due to the acoustic phenomenon of “drawing.” Put a celeste rank too close to the rank it is intended to beat against and it will draw to that rank. When tuning it, one will need to tune it sharper and sharper until it starts beating like mad. In the trade we call this “chopping.” This is usually avoided by putting the celeste rank on the opposite side of the wind chest, away from the rank to which it is intended to beat against.
That’s what I can tell you about the Ludwigtone and why it is such a rare stop.

[microlevel]

My thoughts on the Ludwigtone:

It is a cost / space saving stop; one rank of pipes function as two. Good in theory, not so much in practicality.

Problems:

1. Complexity of construction. The labor and materials to make a rank with a divider wall down the middle, a second mouth and set of tuners almost offsets the savings of construction of a single rank.
2. It is a quite a bit larger in physical size than a single rank. Instead of taking up the space of one rank, it takes up approximately the space occupied by 1.5 rank particularly considering the speaking room needed by the second mouth.
3. Functionality. Designed to function as a celeste, it is only capable of functioning as a very fast celeste. It is impossible to tune it to beat slowly and this may not please the ears of many. This is due to the acoustic phenomenon of “drawing.” Put a celeste rank too close to the rank it is intended to beat against and it will draw to that rank. When tuning it, one will need to tune it sharper and sharper until it starts beating like mad. In the trade we call this “chopping.” This is usually avoided by putting the celeste rank on the opposite side of the wind chest, away from the rank to which it is intended to beat against.
That’s what I can tell you about the Ludwigtone and why it is such a rare stop.

You are obviously very knowledgeable and I should probably not make any more comments. I have never heard a Ludwigtone stop. However, it seems to me you are only looking at this in terms of a different way of producing celeste - a substitute for two separate ranks of pipes. In that light, I can understand and appreciate your remarks. I am looking at this stop in a different way: that it was designed as a new (1925) and unique sound to the organ. I believe there were many unusual inventions in stops and deviations from the norm in those days and probably from the turn of the century. Barnes mentions that besides the beats caused by pitch differences (celeste) there is also produced an undulation in tone of a much slower beat - as he says, "Hence you have a beat within an undulation." I am not disagreeing with you ;-), I am just suggesting that the idea was not to produce a new way to obtain a celeste, but to create an entirely new kind of sound unique unto itself. Mark

[pianoman96]

You are obviously very knowledgeable and I should probably not make any more comments. I have never heard a Ludwigtone stop. However, it seems to me you are only looking at this in terms of a different way of producing celeste - a substitute for two separate ranks of pipes. In that light, I can understand and appreciate your remarks. I am looking at this stop in a different way: that it was designed as a new (1925) and unique sound to the organ. I believe there were many unusual inventions in stops and deviations from the norm in those days and probably from the turn of the century. Barnes mentions that besides the beats caused by pitch differences (celeste) there is also produced an undulation in tone of a much slower beat - as he says, "Hence you have a beat within an undulation." I am not disagreeing with you ;-), I am just suggesting that the idea was not to produce a new way to obtain a celeste, but to create an entirely new kind of sound unique unto itself. Mark

Thanks for the info guys! I found The Contemporary American Organ in my file cabinet. Never realized that picture was in there. Very helpful. I first heard the Ludwigtone on the 4/115 Schantz organ at Church of the Gesu here in Milwaukee. I immediately fell in love with the stop and tried to use it as often as possible during a concert I gave there about a month ago.

I visited Holtkamp Organ Co. a few weeks ago and Mr. Holtkamp told me the story of how it was created. In the 1920's, Mr. Votteler (of Votteler-Holtkamp-Sparling) had a request from the music director at his home church to make an organ stop that could be used to accompany chant and plainsong. The music director's name was something Ludwig. (can't remember the first name) And so it came to be known as the Ludwigtone. He also said there were only a few dozen ranks of them produced and probably a dozen or less still in existence.

[microlevel]

Thanks for the info guys! I found The Contemporary American Organ in my file cabinet. Never realized that picture was in there. Very helpful. I first heard the Ludwigtone on the 4/115 Schantz organ at Church of the Gesu here in Milwaukee. I immediately fell in love with the stop and tried to use it as often as possible during a concert I gave there about a month ago.

I visited Holtkamp Organ Co. a few weeks ago and Mr. Holtkamp told me the story of how it was created. In the 1920's, Mr. Votteler (of Votteler-Holtkamp-Sparling) had a request from the music director at his home church to make an organ stop that could be used to accompany chant and plainsong. The music director's name was something Ludwig. (can't remember the first name) And so it came to be known as the Ludwigtone. He also said there were only a few dozen ranks of them produced and probably a dozen or less still in existence.

You're very welcome. I wish you success with the project and hope you will post some pictures and audio when you are finished with this very rare stop. Good Luck!
I am remembering a tubular pneumatic Votteler-Holtkamp-Sparling organ in a Detroit U.M. church (14th Avenue, I think it was). It intrigued me because there was no motor switch at the console. You had to go to an adjacent room and operate one of those old DC motor starters (with the large sliding handle). I'm not sure where the DC came from; probably a rectifier was added at some point, but the blower motor was DC. Another Detroit church (2nd Baptist) had a Cassavant with a DC motor running the blower, but that at least had been upgraded with a remote starter. This was still in existence in the late 1970's! Just when you think old stuff like this is all gone, you find it. Mark

[Terpodion]

"the idea was not to produce a new way to obtain a celeste, but to create an entirely new kind of sound unique unto itself."

Quite true and a very admirable thing at that. I also find your undertaking admirable. Unfortunately such unique voices rarely find their way in to the specifications of actual instruments – which I consider an unfortunate thing. Instead, these “luxury voices” usually take the form of the more common “glory horn,” - chamade, state trumpet, high pressure tuba, etc. color reed such as a flugelhorn, orchestral oboe, French horn, a big, solo flute or a barely audible string such as an aeoline. When we are hard pressed to get an organ built with the necessities of a complete foundation and flute chorus, I can easily understand how the old boys originally thought that a single rank doing the work of two might be a good shortcut but unfortunately it didn’t work out that way. Instead they created a luxury stop which became a curiosity and rarity. And rare it is indeed. I’ve never seen one and I have worked on literally thousands of organs. I have seen plenty of Holtcamp copulas, Estey free reed clarinets, H&H languidless orchestral flutes but I have always wondered about the Ludwigtone.

I’d love to see one. And by see one I mean hear one, play every pipe in the rank, tune it and see how it responds, examine the nicking, the cutup, the scaling, etc. Well short of that, I’ll stay tuned, very curious how your project turns out. Good luck.

[rmdostie]

I visited Holtkamp Organ Co. a few weeks ago and Mr. Holtkamp told me the story of how it was created. In the 1920's, Mr. Votteler (of Votteler-Holtkamp-Sparling) had a request from the music director at his home church to make an organ stop that could be used to accompany chant and plainsong. The music director's name was something Ludwig. (can't remember the first name) And so it came to be known as the Ludwigtone. He also said there were only a few dozen ranks of them produced and probably a dozen or less still in existence.

I remember reading this in the biography of Walter Holtcamp, which I still have around somewhere. I think it's in that book, or possibly the Orpha Ochse book, in which a similarity between a Ludwigtone and a doppelflöte is pointed out.

Rick Dostie
Resurrection Lutheran Church
Waterville, ME USA

[majestique]

The large residence organ we've been working on in Bratenahl (Cleveland) Ohio being discussed elsewhere in the forum has a Ludwigtone in the Swell division. While the organ is not quite completed yet (it is in the final stages of tonal finishing on the flues, with the reeds to follow) it will not be long before it is ready to be heard. With the good Doctor's permission, when the time comes, I will try to get a recording and post it to be heard.

Kind regards,
Shawn

[pianoman96]

Here is the CAD drawings of the design I came up with. Scale is 42. Hopefully I'll start the prototype soon.