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Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ

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  • chrisemtpa
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ



    Well I am giving up on the Kilgen Action and am planning on going to direct electric. So anyone interested in the kilgen action let me know.

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  • chrisemtpa
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ



    Thanks for the info, I have taken some of the magnets out and spread 2 with contact cleaner and 2 with w-d40 to see if i can get a better reading. The armature that the wires are wrapped around are rusted and the pallets that cover the exhuast ports are rusted or oxidzed.




    I will try and test some more magnets today and see if I can get any readings. But i can not even measure voltage between the two contact points, let alone ohms. The meter is working so we will see what happens.




    Thanks Mr Odell for the formula on calculating the weight for the regulator.




    Have a great Holiday.




    Chris

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  • odellorgans
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ

    This may save you a little time.

    To calculate the correct amount of weight to place on a given reservoir:

    (W x L x P x 0.036) - H = Required sprung or dead weight in lbs.

    Where:

    W is the width of the reservoir head in inches
    L is the length of the reservoir head in inches
    P is the desired wind pressure in inches
    H is the weight of the reservoir top in lbs.

    The constant 0.036 is the weight of one cubic inch of water.

    I won't debate sprung versus dead weight, each has their application, virtues and problems.

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  • KleinErzahler
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ

    "I figured I would just throw some bricks on it till i get to about 4.5" of wind, which should allow for the action and 4" of wind for the pipe work."

    Just so you know, Electro-pneumatic organ actions use an absolutely insignificant volume of wind to operate, contrary to what any Wicks ad will try and tell you. If you want your pipes to speak at 4" and the chest will work on that pressure, by all means set your regulator to 4".

    My advice to you is to use mostly springs to achieve your pressure with the exception of a small weight to support a pneumatic tremolo, in order to prevent the wind system from being excessively bouncy.
    - N

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  • al
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ



    You're right "less practical" is a better choice of words. The current to drive the magnet at higher pressures with large pallet diameter is quite high requiring much higher voltage. That puts the driver ic's (UDN2981 or ULN2803) past design limits and requires discrete transistors. Plus the puwer disipation in the magnet causes considerable heating. There is a way to use capacitors to get a turn-on kick but the additional parts and circuit board just make it not very practical. You can get away with 5 or 6 inches with reisner 90 ohm units for the trebles but the bigger pipes need the 45 ohm coils. Since I have several new? DE chests I wanted to use them for a little VOX at 7-8 inches but the driving voltage when I tested the chesttoo high. That's why I decided to use an EP chest for this. I got a Moller that looked nice on the outside. Well it was left out in the rain so I'm now releathering it as I get the time. There are those that use DE up to high pressures like Wicks but I prefer the Reisner magnets as they are simple, readily available, and not too expensive. These are for my little 6 rank organ connected to an older Allen. I makethe Midi interface for several Allen models.Actually I better get busy now otherwise it'll never get done. Next project is a D Wurly.




    Later, Al

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  • Don Furr
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ

    [quote user="odellorgans"]
    Hey Al........
    I don't understand why you say ..."above 4" pressure DE is not reliable".....I've been around many organs on 5-7 inches, all DE that never gave a problem. In fact, Wicks sells a high pressure magnet that's tested up to 32". I haven't seen one of those yet but it's advertised on their web site.
    Perhaps a poor choice of words. I would disagree with reliable, and instead say less practical.

    Proper performance of electromechanical action on a given pressure is a function of the pressure and pallet size vs. the input voltage.

    The larger the pallet and higher the wind pressure, the greater voltage required to open it. Most organ control systems and switching are designed around an operating range of 12 to 15VDC, and if you look at the performace curve for the actions, it tends to peak at around 4" to 5" pressure for a 1" pallet when running on the 15VDC range. It's one of the reasons you see diode matric switching in Wicks organs: unlike a microprocessor control system, diode matrix systems are much more tolerant when the need arises to raise input voltages.

    I am certian in order to get an electromechanical action to function at 32" WG, much higher voltages were required. I worked on such a project for a major bulder involving a high-pressure chamade many years ago.

    Some systems can handle up to 40VDC, but then of course you are talking about getting into specialty power supplies, heavier wiring, using multiple valves to get sufficient excursion, etc. As a builder I see this as an area of dimishing returns and would choose electropneumatic.[/quote]
    Edward I totally agree. a 32" DE is not going to be as practical as EP. My main point was that DE is reliable at 4, 5,6 inches.

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  • odellorgans
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ

    Perhaps a poor choice of words. I would disagree with not reliable, and instead say less practical.

    Proper performance of electromechanical action on a given pressure is a function of the pressure and pallet size vs. the input voltage.

    The larger the pallet and higher the wind pressure, the greater the voltage required to open it. Most organ control systems and switching are designed around an operating range of 12 to 15VDC, and if you look at the performace curve for the actions, it tends to peak at around 4" to 5" pressure for a 1" pallet when running in the "nominal" 15VDC range. It is for this reason you see diode matrix switching often employed in Wicks and other electromechanical organs: unlike a microprocessor control system, diode matrix systems are much more tolerant of a need to raise input voltages.

    I am certian in order to get an electromechanical action to function at 32" WG, much higher voltages were required. The physics involved just would not alow it otherwise. I recall I worked on such a project for a major bulder involving a high-pressure chamade many years ago and we employed high-voltage DC switching in order to make it work.

    Some systems can handle up to 40VDC, but then of course you are talking about getting into specialty power supplies, heavier wiring, using multiple valves to get sufficient excursion, etc. As a builder I would see this as an area of dimishing returns and would choose electropneumatic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Don Furr
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ

    [quote user="al"]

    I suspect poor connections rather than open magnets. What wind pressure do you desire?That will determine whether you need to use DE or EP. Above 4" pressure DE is not reliable.For low pressure I would use DE. The expense of leather and magnets is more than DE valves. Plus they're easy to mount. You could also put a Midi interface rank driver board inside so you dont have to run all the wiring outside. I have several extra almost new Rogers chests that are that way.




    Al

    [/quote]
    Hey Al........
    I don't understand why you say ..."above 4" pressure DE is not reliable".....I've been around many organs on 5-7 inches, all DE that never gave a problem. In fact, Wicks sells a high pressure magnet that's tested up to 32". I haven't seen one of those yet but it's advertised on their web site.

    Leave a comment:


  • al
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ



    I suspect poor connections rather than open magnets. What wind pressure do you desire?That will determine whether you need to use DE or EP. Above 4" pressure DE is not reliable.For low pressure I would use DE. The expense of leather and magnets is more than DE valves. Plus they're easy to mount. You could also put a Midi interface rank driver board inside so you dont have to run all the wiring outside. I have several extra almost new Rogers chests that are that way.




    Al

    Leave a comment:


  • odellorgans
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ

    Be of good courage and try not to feel overwhelmed. A project like this will take time.

    If you are not getting any readings on your magnets, check the following:

    1. Make sure yor meter is set for the correct range and is calibrated. Most organ magnets are under 150 ohms. Auto-ranging DVMs will often take a sec to read lower values.

    2. Check your connection points and make sure you have solid contact. In addition to natural oxidation, organbuilders in the old days often used flux when soldering which leaves a nasty non-conducting residue on escutcheon pins. I would carefully scrape down to fresh metal at your contact points if all else fails.

    AC power would be a definite no. DC higher than 15v would be unlikely. Most old selenium rectifiers only had an output range from 10 to 15VDC.

    Leave a comment:


  • chrisemtpa
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ



    Hi AL, I will have to see if the regulator is in the pile of stuff. I am not that concerned however with a trem as i tend not to use them at all. and upon looking at the resivoir again i found it is not a floating top it has wood slats on all four sides to guide it up and down.




    Also I checked some of the kilgen magnets and am unable obtain an Ohms reading nor get them to lift the little metal pallets underneath with 12 volt DC. Is it possible that they use AC not DC or a larger voltage such as 24VDC?




    Very Discouraging night definetly rethinking restoration at this point and going to direct electric. But we shall see the tests shall continue. Mean time I will continue to practicce on the crappy allen at church and my Haupwerk Organ.




    Thanks




    Chris

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  • al
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ



    Re the regulator or resevoir, it almost certainly controls the pressure with either a curtain or series of pallet valves. You need a balance of spring tension and some weight to have it stable and to get it to trem properly. Too much weight and it may become unstable and oscillate. More info at the following: http://atos.stirlingprop.com/knowbase.htm




    Al

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  • chrisemtpa
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ



    Thanks for the info, The magnets are the screw in type that have the round port at the bottom. They do not match the ones that organ supply has. I will check a couple to night with the ohm meter and see what they come out to. The part that is rusted is the U shapedpiece that the wire is wrapped around. The wire does not apper to be rusted though. At the very leastI guess i could wire the magnets up and try to listenfor the brass valve to drop when deactivated with my Stethescope. The pouches for the most part all seem to be the same size on each bottom board. They are about 2 inches in diameter and aside from the larger 8' pipes most of the pallets are close to the same size.




    My resivoir does not have a regulator in itand is a floating one. Is this normal for a kilgen and how would I regulate it? I figured I would just throw some bricks on it till i get to about 4.5" of wind, which should allow for the action and 4" of wind for the pipe work.




    So i guess i will attempt to restore the kilgen action, even though it weighs a ton. They sure did use some heavy thick lumber. I will probably be looking for some fill in pipes and some other ranks to extend some of the stops such as 2' principal, and a Haskeled 16' Principal. But that will be in the future. Mean time i need to get my organ guy from canada to get my console fully functional.




    Thanks for the help I am sure I wil have more questions as the time goes on.

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  • al
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ



    I did a Kilgen years ago using hide glue. I think the leather pouches were already cut fromReisner (OSI). Columbia is good too. You can get them set up with punchings in the middle to attach the pallet wire. You might need new pallets if they are water damaged and hard - it may leak and be noisy as the valve closes. Dont lose the springs. Just use a damp rag or sponge to dampen the glue and it will come right off. Use hide or fish glue. Never use white glue.




    The magnets are brass and can be easily removed. Both endsunscrew out of the body which is pressed in the board. Ohmmeter them and replace the bad ones. Don't take them out just to clean. Unscrew the vent and take out thearmature. You can probably get new armatures from OSI. Just use a vacuum and brush and a little compressed air. I dont think you have rust on the outside as brass doesnt rust.




    We just removed a Kilgen / Wurlitzer organ from a local church. The Kilgen relay and some chestwork are still there if you are interested. La, Calif area.




    I'm doing a Moller chest nowthat has some water damage using fish glue. It works fine at room temperature.




    AL

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  • odellorgans
    replied
    Re: Re-leathering a Kilgen 4 rank organ

    Varying the viscosity of hide glue will affect its final tensile strength. The foremost authority can be found here.

    Leave a comment:

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