Tweet
Two quick questions:
1) Is Vox Humana the same as Vox Baryton?
2) Is Chalumeau and Corno di Bassetto the same as a clarinet?
Jezza
-
Two quick questions:
1) Is Vox Humana the same as Vox Baryton?
2) Is Chalumeau and Corno di Bassetto the same as a clarinet?
Jezza -
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
1) I have encountered variations on the stop name Vox Humana, including Menschenstimme; but never Vox Baryton. Here is my educated guess: This might be a 16-foot Vox Humana?
2) These three stops are similar but not the same voicing. A Chalumeau, also known as a Schalmei and a Corno di Bassetto and a Clarinet can all look the same physically, along with the Krummhorn, also known as a Cromorne. Stops names and spellings differ around the world, as do the voices themselves. The Chalumeau/Schalmei tends to sound somewhat more nasal and piquant than the others mentioned. The Bassett Horn and Clarinet are more mellow; somewhat like a mellow Krummhorn sound.
To some extent, the answer almost depends on why you are asking. If you have a piece where it says to use the Clarinet stop for the solo voice, you could certainly substitute one of the others that you mention without corrupting the composer's original intent.
On our organ at church we have a Klarinett 8 on the Choir and a Krummhorn 8 on the Swell. The original pipes were both labelled "Krummhorn." But we wanted to rename one just to make the console look more conventional instead of having two Krummhorns. The Choir reed is the more mellow of the two, so that one is now the Klarinett and it does not sound unorthodox when you pulll that stop and play for it to read Klarinett.
There is some overlap in organ stop names. Look at Diapason and Prinicipal/Prinzipal or Montre and Prestant.
Have fun! -
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
[quote user="MenchenStimme"] There is some overlap in organ stop names. Look at Diapason and Prinicipal/Prinzipal or Montre and Prestant.[/quote]
Not so fast!
A leather-lipped Skinner 40-scale Diapason is not the same thing as an unnicked Prinzipal on a '60s vintage Bosch organ; neither of these are anything like a Cavaillé-Coll Montre. And a 17th-century Montre is different again. Some of these I love, some of these (actually one of these [:D])I loathe.
Now if you said thatsome North-American buildershave beencavalier about naming stops (flip-flopping nomenclature to whichever style is in vogue - no matter what the pipes sound like), I could agree to that! [:)]
I think of the Basset Horn as having a fuller, darker tone than a Clarinet. The only Chalumeaux I've encountered have been of the neo-baroque variety.
Vox Baryton makes me think of certain Cavaillé-Coll organs. It might even be a free reed, and havenothing in common with Vox Humanæ. It all depends on which organ you are considering.
Here is a useful resource: http://www.organstops.org/index.htmlComment
-
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
Hi Soubasse,
I am a frequent browser of organstops.org; but appreciate the reminder nonetheless. Thank you for the Vox Baryton information. That name is so rare that it is not even on the aforementioned site.
Yes, I was referring more to the North American practice of flip-flopping names. I did not mean to sound so literal as to suggest that Diapason, Montre, Prestant, Principal are merely different words for the exact same thing. Ideally, they should never be the exact same thing. The same can be said of the reeds being discussed.
If you were to hear our former Krummhorn that we now refer to as Klarinett, I suspect that you would agree that we are not stretching the truth to the breaking point. I am virtually certain that you would agree that the Krummhorn that remains the Krummhorn was indeed the correct choice between the two. We thought about calling the current Klarinetta Basset Horn instead, but decided that was too much of a stretch.
And who among us has not found stops labelled "Oboe" to be all over the place tonally?
I think you said it all with: "It all depends on which organ you are considering."
Thanks again!Comment
-
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
In this neck of the woods, Corno di Bassetto = Fat Clarinet.
- NComment
-
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
The whole nomenclature thing gets my goat. In the United States, most organists have never heard what a real Montre or what a Prinzipal or what a Diapason really sound like. We've been reared on generic Principals that are as vanilla as the day is long. A builder can put a different name on it, but it isn't going to change the sound.
I had the opportunity earlier this year to listen to a Principal stop froma 16th century instrument from the island of Malta. It did not resemble anything like we hear today.Even the Open Diapasons from the 19th century don't sound like the Diapasons built today.
When one gets into geographical/national differences, there should bea tonal differentiation. A Diapason SHOULD be different from a Principal. The colorshould be warmer, thicker, and a little woolier. A Prinzipal will bethinner. We've been jaded by the extremes of the neo-baroque instruments of the 60s and 70s that supposedly enlightenedour ears. Go to Germany and listen to the warmth of some of the instruments from the 1700s. They are silvery and bright, but not shrill.
Cromornes and Krummhorns should be different, but in generic use, many builders just attach a name to amiddle of the road short resonator reed.True French cromornes are nothing like the krummhorns of the 1960s.Corno di Bassetti (Bassettos) are big fat clarinets.
I am a firm believer that a stop knob should tell the organist what the stop sounds like. If it says "Diapason" it needs to be a Diapason, not a Principal or a Montre. If the stop says "Trompette" it should not be a Trommet.
Comment
-
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
The Vox Baritone, as found in the Vox Human Organ of the Cadet Chapel at West Point, is a Vox Humana. The are the "same" in family and general tone. They are different in details as they would need to be. There are four Vox sets in that organ. Then there is the Choir Vox, there are also two more in the Echo (Angelica and Mystica).
ChapelpipesComment
-
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
To be honest, I sort of like a Vox to have a faster/deeper tremolo like a Theatre Organ. For this reason I like the idea of the Vox having its own chest/regulator/tremolo.
Were the West Point Voxes made by Moller?
- NComment
-
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
The pipes in the Vox Humana Organ were made by Moller. One set would be typical of Mollers standard Vox for the vintage. A second set would be more akin to a Solo Vox. Then two other sets are patterns that Fritz Mayers supplied to Moller to fabricate. They made sure they gave FM the "blame" by labeling that they were not MPM patterns. They are on their own chest, bellows and tremolo.
The present Choir Vox was made by a specialty supplier who operated closer to you than me.
The Mystica and Angelica are by Schopps off of earlier patterns.
I do not remember who made the Harmonic Pedal Vox. It could be Kimball, but I don't remember right now.
Chapelpipes
Comment
-
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
Diaphone 32,
The Vox Baryton was *envisioned* by Skinner to be a *type* of band-instrument voice known as the Baritone - related somewhat to the Euphonium. Here is the stoplist to St. John the Divine in New York with the Vox Baryton in the Solo division:
http://www.nycago.org/Organs/NYC/htm...nDivGreat.html
Cheers!Comment
-
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
The Baryton 16 in the Choir section of St Matthew Lutheran in Hanover Pa [ 231 rks ] is a Vox 16 possibly shorter than normal but I am not certain; if it is then it would be approaching a Rankett 16 except that the Rankett is very diminutive [ much smaller tone= softer in power ]compared to the Baryton 16
The Cathedral Church of St John the Divine in New York City has a loud Vox Baryton 8 in the Solo on 15 inches wind pressure
The organ at Liverpool Cathedral [Willis III circa 1926 ] has a 16' Baryton in the Choir and I am certain it is a Vox
Question to Chapelpipes:
Does Cadet Chapel have any Voxes or orchestral reeds by Gottfried of Erie Pa?
Moller bought these from Gottfried at least as late as 1929 as noted by me from other organs of theirsI have played...
The Corno di ....or Basset Hn scale is larger in diameter compared to a smaller scale for most Clarinet or Cromorne or Krummhorn stops....also it seems to be happier on heavier wind where possible...but nothing like the Grand Clarinet on 25" in the 1914 Ethereal Division at Wanamaker's or the similar stops of orchestral character by Gottfried of Erie , Pa in the Gallery section of the Midmer-Losh at Boardwalk Hall containing the super orchestral stops on 25" like the Cor d' Orchestre 8, ............Egyptian bazu 8 ...[ a fractional - length stop with real ............spun brass bells ] , Major Oboe 8 and a few other goodies....
The Chalumeau 4 in th pedal of the Mormon Tabernacle organ is a half-length Clarinet;I am not sure if it has English or French shallots but the name sounds like French whereas the tone doesn't at all; it sounds like a bright-toned Clarinet!
Sesqui-16Comment
-
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
Does Cadet Chapel have any Voxes or orchestral reeds by Gottfried of Erie Pa?
Yes, there are a number of the early reeds byGottfried.
Chapelpipes
Comment
-
Re: Vox Humanas and Clarinets
I'd be interested to see a 5" scale CDB, I've not seen one anywhere near that big (unless you count the EMS helical tuners as scale). Woolsey and Girard both have one, the latter going down to 16' pitch in the Solo as a unit. I'd say off hand that 8' C is around or perhaps a little over 2" for those.
- Nate
Then of course there is the Vox BerryTone, which makes a sound imitative of certain berries being squished. It comes in Blue, Straw, Rasp (very narrow scaled), and Boysen. I've not seen any example of a Halle version yet.
Comment
Comment