New to site. Need advice on pipe organ purchase

[dkowal]

I am the the Director of Music at a fairly large Catholic Church in the Midwest. Our new pastor is seriously considering a new organ purchase.
We currently have a 6 rank Wicks which is about 50 years old, and does not fill the space adequately. The church seats ~750.
Can anyone offer advice on how large of an organ to purchase for this size church, and approximately what we are looking at in terms of cost?
Any advice would be most appreciated. I want to give him some basic information before we move forward with setting up a committee, contacting builders, etc.
Thanks if advance,
David

[Leisesturm]

Are you an organist? Do you have an organist? Do you have an independent local organist or consultant to provide input on this? It isn't because your present organ is 6 ranks why it does not fill the Sanctuary. One rank scaled, winded and voiced properly could fill your Sanctuary. But one rank built to fill a 750 seat Sanctuary could not then accompany a 30 voice choir. Organs have multiple ranks to provide versatility, not volume. Organbuilders IMO do themselves and churches a disservice with their guidelines: so many stops for so many hundred congregants. Nonsense, a congregation regardless of how small should have as many ranks as it is possible to afford. Given sufficient physical space for them, of course. A worship space for 750 souls ought to have a well appointed 3 manual instrument of close to 40 ranks, even 50 would not be excessive. Probably unaffordable if built by any reputable pipe organ firm I know of. I have to think we are talking around $500K. Maybe $750K done really well. Maybe $350K if a lot of unification. But a two manual 30 rank instrument could work $175k - $250k?

I am strongly suggesting you consider the purchase of an Allen or Rodgers electronic digital organ. In 2016 this means an instrument indistinguishable from one built with pipework and It will cost no more than $100K and that is a money no object installation. You could do the same project for around $60K by scrimping on audio channels. What you will get is two or three 40 rank instruments housed in the same console, and the ability to control external sound sources through the MIDI interface built into all new instruments. Even if your organist is an old timer they will still be able to play it, and lets be honest, if they are that old, in 10 years or less they will have retired. Then what? You need an instrument that will be interesting enough that someone will want to play it. Build it and they will come.

50 years ago an organbuilder suggested to your church leaders that they put a 40 rank instrument in that space but they decided on a 6 rank instrument! Even if they decide to put a 14 rank pipe organ in the Sanctuary in 2016, it will still be inadequate. Not in terms of volume. That can be taken care of easily, but if your organist has any talent they will not be satisfied with the tonal palette offered by only 14 ranks. Neither will a contemporary congregation used to the worship sounds coming from popular media. Even traditional worship needs a versatile instrument that can purr through a vocal solo, tickle interest in a contemplative chorale prelude and thrill at the end of worship in a dynamic postlude. Just for perspective, the organs in the big cathedrals in NYC and Washington, D.C. approach 100 ranks and top $1M. Some of those worship spaces seat less than 2000 people. Whether 10 ranks or 30 or 100 the organbuilder is aiming to provide ~90db of sound with everything screaming. The larger instrument isn't that much louder than a much smaller one, it is very much more versatile between the volume extremes. This is regardless of whether the instrument is digital or pipe. FWIW.

[mrdc2000]

dkowal - Where in the Midwest are you located? We can advice who the best dealers are, whose purposes are to provide the best organ that enhances a church's worship experience.

[myorgan]

I am the the Director of Music at a fairly large Catholic Church in the Midwest. Our new pastor is seriously considering a new organ purchase.

David,

Technically, even an organ with 6 ranks could be voiced to fill that size sanctuary. That said, however, it would definitely NOT provide enough tonal variety for a trained organist. No person worth his/her salt would advise a 6-rank instrument for a 750-seat congregation. Unless maybe, you have an acoustically perfect environment.

People have already asked where you're located, as that is important when considering a new organ (or adding to your current organ), and finding the correct person to advise. That said, be aware it would probably be advisable to obtain an organ consultant--a person in the field who is an experienced organist, and who has played many different instruments. The pipe/digital discussion will come down the road, and it is important that the consultant remain neutral when advising between the options available. The consultant should make sure your church's needs are met--not his/hers.

From the title of your post, it appears your church has already decided on a pipe organ. Keep in mind, a hybrid organ is also a possibility if money is a large consideration (i.e. pipe/digital). I have played a pipe/digital combination organ near my city, and was quite pleasantly surprised by the sound. It was truly difficult to discern between the pipe vs. digital stops as I played them.

Best of luck finding the most appropriate instrument for your situation, and I hope you end up with an instrument that supports a great music program.

Michael

[mrdc2000]

The use of consultants is generally good advice but you must remember that the business of consulting is about making money.
Consultants usually have connections with various manufacturers and whoever pays the most is the one recommended.
Remember also that consulting fees from the manufacturer and dealer and the church are on top of the church's basic cost for the organ.
An honest dealer, yes, there are some, will save you money and take care of your church's needs for a long time after the organ is installed. The consultant after getting paid disappears.

[crapwonk]

It would also be interesting to have some background about the architecture of the church. Is there room to put a larger organ? Architectural changes can (and probably will) add to the cost of the project significantly.

The cost per rank can vary significantly depending on the stop, but from what I have seen recently, $20k per rank, plus another $50k or so for the console, is fairly realistic. Sticker shock is a very real possibility. Set expectations on the higher side so that when you get some real bids, your people are prepared.

[myorgan]

Of course, there are always many pipe organs waiting to be relocated that may be a good fit for your church. Many of them can be purchased for next to nothing, but the cost to repurpose the organ can sometimes be as much as a new organ.

• http://www.pipeorganfoundation.org/
• http://www.organclearinghouse.net/

Food for thought.

Michael

[VaPipeorgantuner]

I am the the Director of Music at a fairly large Catholic Church in the Midwest. Our new pastor is seriously considering a new organ purchase.
We currently have a 6 rank Wicks which is about 50 years old, and does not fill the space adequately. The church seats ~750.
Can anyone offer advice on how large of an organ to purchase for this size church, and approximately what we are looking at in terms of cost?
Any advice would be most appreciated. I want to give him some basic information before we move forward with setting up a committee, contacting builders, etc.
Thanks if advance,
David

Some good advice has already been given in some of the posts. It is hard to give very specific advice without knowing much more about this particular congregation, the physical facilities, and what the music program is like.

Generically, the 'old rule of thumb' was that one rank per every 25 persons of the seating capacity. Of course that is NOT a universal rule, as any organbuilder would tell you. There are 3 main functions of a pipe organ in a liturgical setting (listed in their order of importance):
1 - Accompaniment and support of congregational singing
2 - Accompanying the various choirs, musical ensembles, and soloists
3 - playing the standard literature of the pipe organ

There are many stylistic considerations to make in terms of designing a church's pipe organ...free-standing case, chambered, placement within the space (gallery, chancel, etc). Tonal design...form follows function...what are the acoustical properties of the building...reverberant to what degree (or lacking), frequency response of the room (boomy bass, prone to high frequency resonances or lack of bass response).

Price consideration is going to vary widely from builder to builder (or rebuilder, should you decide to consider re-homing a pipe organ thru someone like the Organ Clearing House). FWIW, there are some very nice pipe organs available thru that organization...most will need some degree of rebuilding and reconfiguration to fit in your nave or chancel, but they are certainly worthy of consideration IF you determine that one would fit the needs of your church.

This is why you would hire a reputable pipe organ builder, and >perhaps< use a consultant to guide the organ committee thru the process. IF you hire a consultant, they must NOT come with an agenda or be affiliated (even if covertly) with specific builders. Watch out for a consultant that says that the organ MUST be tracker, or MUST be this-or-that before the process has begun. And be careful of ANYONE that says that a digital organ is the best solution without knowing significant details about the church and it's music program. Digital organs can provide a solution for the money or space-challenged church, but real pipes make music involving physics that speakers are presently incapable of reproducing.

Phew! A lot to digest, isn't it?

Best wishes on the acquisition of your church's new pipe organ...keep us informed of your progress, please!

Rick in VA
(full disclosure - I am in the pipe organ building/repairing business, have relocated several pipe organs and participated in numerous pipe/digital hybrid organs)

[Menschenstimme]

Theoretically, an instrument that can do thus:

3 - playing the standard literature of the pipe organ

Will also be able to do "1" and "2" well.

[dkowal]

dkowal - Where in the Midwest are you located? We can advice who the best dealers are, whose purposes are to provide the best organ that enhances a church's worship experience.

St. Louis, Missouri

[myorgan]

St. Louis, Missouri

Dkowal,

I know a reputable pipe organ builder the next state over from you. When the time comes, I can put you in touch with one of the executives--went to college with him. I'm not sure if his company re-builds or not.

What brand of church is it? That may help understand the music tradition as well.

Michael

[toodles]

Michael: he already said Catholic (probably Roman Catholic, as I don't think Eastern Orthodox uses organ music).

Dkowal, I would recommend you thoroughly investigate pipe organ possibilities before making a decision to go with a digital instrument. Pipe organs are more expensive, but a fine pipe organ is worth the investment.

It is entirely possible for relocate a pipe organ for a fraction of the cost of a new one. In fact, a relocated pipe organ can (but won't necessarily) cost less than a new digital organ.

Another option might be to purchase a used digital organ and use it for a while--in fact, a used digital might be an option while a pipe organ is being built if you chose to go that route.

You probably need to figure $200,000 to $300,000 as a minimum for a new pipe organ, and maybe $100,000 for a used one, with half of that for purchase and the other half for refurbishment and relocation. The Organ Clearing House shows a good sample of what may be available on their website.

Here's a used digital that might serve, perhaps temporarily: https://carbondale.craigslist.org/msg/5494054818.html

[Leisesturm]

Another option might be to purchase a used digital organ and use it for a while--in fact, a used digital might be an option while a pipe organ is being built if you chose to go that route.

You probably need to figure $200,000 to $300,000 as a minimum for a new pipe organ, and maybe $100,000 for a used one, with half of that for purchase and the other half for refurbishment and relocation. The Organ Clearing House shows a good sample of what may be available on their website.

Here's a used digital that might serve, perhaps temporarily: https://carbondale.craigslist.org/msg/5494054818.html

Interesting. You advise they get a pipe organ, but link them to a digital to use in the meanwhile. I don't know... my church, if they put that Allen in there its going to stay there! I have finally been at my church long enough to gently suggest some digital enhancements to the 23 pipe ranks. They told me No, h--- no. We are done enhancing that pipe organ. Its fine as it is and the way you play that piano... if you never play the organ again it would be just fine with us. We LOVE the piano playing. No slight to Catholics but... in the parishes I haven't seen a lot of love for fine organs. The Cathedral in St. Louis has a gigantic ... Wicks I think. Cathedral acoustics dontcha know. Acoustics in a 750 seat sanctuary are probably such that an ADC 5000 with enough amplification... ... just saying...

[myorgan]

Michael: he already said Catholic (probably Roman Catholic, as I don't think Eastern Orthodox uses organ music).

What?!!!:-P I'm supposed to read the posts before I respond now? Sorry about that.:embarrassed:

Another option might be to purchase a used digital organ and use it for a while--in fact, a used digital might be an option while a pipe organ is being built if you chose to go that route.

The only caveat to the advice above, is that while the ultimate goal might be a pipe organ, parishioners may lose their motivation for a pipe organ if you temporarily get a digital that does a good job.

Michael

[Havoc]

If you are first going to aquire and set up a digital that can do a good enough job, there won't be much left for a pipe organ. If the RC has the same musical engagement there as here then that 6 rank will do fine, just have it overhauled.