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  • Sound 'leaking' from Swell enclosure

    I wonder if any here might have some insight—

    The Swell chamber of my current church's otherwise lovely organ 'leaks' sound—although the Swell shades are installed properly, when they are closed there is still WAY too much sound coming from the division. My organ tech, who had worked with the builder when the organ was installed in it's new case, recalls that the builder seemed surprised by this (but apparently no one was on hand at the time to insist that the situation be explored and remedied). The current theory is that sound may be leaking from the top of the case, and that a possible solution might be to apply some product to the top of the case that will cut down on the amount of sound penetrating the case (the Swell is located in the 'top story' of the case). However, there is a concern that this may affect the Pedal division, as the big pedal reeds speak through the top of the case.

    Any thoughts? Thanks!

  • #2
    Originally posted by markcec View Post
    I wonder if any here might have some insight—

    The Swell chamber of my current church's otherwise lovely organ 'leaks' sound—although the Swell shades are installed properly, when they are closed there is still WAY too much sound coming from the division. My organ tech, who had worked with the builder when the organ was installed in it's new case, recalls that the builder seemed surprised by this (but apparently no one was on hand at the time to insist that the situation be explored and remedied). The current theory is that sound may be leaking from the top of the case, and that a possible solution might be to apply some product to the top of the case that will cut down on the amount of sound penetrating the case (the Swell is located in the 'top story' of the case). However, there is a concern that this may affect the Pedal division, as the big pedal reeds speak through the top of the case.

    Any thoughts? Thanks!
    Sound leaking from the top of the case, and sound leaking from the top of the Swell enclosure are two very different things. The situation you describe is the exact one that I am experiencing and I suspect the 'issue' in both cases is the complex that is being created in culturally sensitive organists towards the growing intolerance of moderate levels of organ tone. No swell box I have ever known in my LONG experience has ever gone smoothly down to inaudible. They always stopped well short of that. You can set up an electronic instrument to get that effect (near inaudibility) but on a pipe organ the builder sets the low limit by taste, and also budget. Money no object pipe organs have swell enclosures with walls (and tops) that are 14" thick! Less well appointed instruments have swell enclosure walls less than 4" thick. Any attempt to modulate the Swell volume needs to address all sides of the Swell enclosure, not just the top.

    The Swell enclosure is its own space, and it will not (should not) affect any other Division's pipes if it is treated with additional soundproofing. It is entirely possible that the Pedal reeds and Swell reeds are one and the same. I still don't see treatment of the Swell box as an issue if sufficient sound is allowed to egress when the Swell shades are fully open. The problem as I see it would be if acoustic treatment were applied to the entire organ (organ case) in an effort to modulate the Swell Organ (swell box).

    So, first order of business is to find out exactly what is being proposed.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Leisesturm View Post
      No swell box I have ever known in my LONG experience has ever gone smoothly down to inaudible. They always stopped well short of that.
      I'm not looking for inaudible—I would just like to be able to make something that sounds like an audible crescendo/decresecendo! The swell shades on this instrument create less of an effect than any instrument I've encountered in my (reasonably long) experience, and I've gotten feedback from a couple of my colleagues who agree. The organ tech is talking specifically about the top of the case rather than the enclosure. I will get back up there tomorrow (it's not easy, and I'm not great on tall ladders!) and double check the top of the swell enclosure itself. As I remember, the big pedal reeds are at the rear of the case, behind the Swell box, and speak through the Great organ (lower level), but also depend on egress through the top of the case in the back to make themselves fully felt.

      It's not a drastic problem, and the instrument and I have gotten along fine for the past three years. But it would nice if we could find a solution.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by markcec View Post
        As I remember, the big pedal reeds are at the rear of the case, behind the Swell box, and speak through the Great organ (lower level), but also depend on egress through the top of the case in the back to make themselves fully felt.
        Markcec,

        May I suggest that while climbing on the ladder, take the time to check of any other openings that should not be open (i.e. wind supply, entry door to the box, Swell shade felts, etc.). It could be simply that something needs to be re-felted, or someone has inadvertently left part of the Swell box open, or something has fallen with gravity--like soundproofing around the wind supply to the box.

        Best of luck getting along with the organ!;-)

        Michael
        Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
        • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
        • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
        • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by markcec View Post
          I wonder if any here might have some insight—

          The Swell chamber of my current church's otherwise lovely organ 'leaks' sound—although the Swell shades are installed properly, when they are closed there is still WAY too much sound coming from the division. My organ tech, who had worked with the builder when the organ was installed in it's new case, recalls that the builder seemed surprised by this (but apparently no one was on hand at the time to insist that the situation be explored and remedied). The current theory is that sound may be leaking from the top of the case, and that a possible solution might be to apply some product to the top of the case that will cut down on the amount of sound penetrating the case (the Swell is located in the 'top story' of the case). However, there is a concern that this may affect the Pedal division, as the big pedal reeds speak through the top of the case.

          Any thoughts? Thanks!
          Like the subject line says...I see all sorts of construction used in the making of swell enclosures from single thicknesses of 3/4" plywood to double-walls filled with sawdust...Swell shades from plywood to laminated strips of basswood or poplar to hollow aluminum-skinned shades on wooden frames. Sometimes a swell enclosure just doesn't give the dynamic range that was expected when the organ was built. The "box" shouldn't have any openings to the outside world when there is not a tuner working inside. The door(s) should make an effective seal, and the box built of dense enough material(s) to prevent as much sound to penetrate as possible. All openings for windlines should be sealed if they would allow sound into the listening area of the organ.

          Unfortunately, addressing this shortcoming will probably prove to be costly especially if the enclosure needs to be replaced or enhanced. The original builder ought to be consulted (if he/she is still available) as this person will be very familiar with how the box is constructed and then the builder can offer possible solutions. A check to see that the shades do in fact close all the way is certainly in order, as is finding out how far they open up (to determine the full range of available expression).

          Sorry to not have a better answer, but this is the type of situation where good analysis is not easy over the 'net. Perhaps your technician can bring in another "fresh pair of eyes" that might see details otherwise overlooked.

          Let us know what is found, what solutions are proposed and implemented.

          Rick in VA

          Comment


          • #6
            Good points all around. However this is one of those issues that one needs to look at first hand to really determine what the problem. Perhaps take some pictures.

            Just as an aside; I've seen the inside of the Hope-Jones in Ocean Grove. The chambers are concrete. The shades are covered with lead on both sides and I was told that they weigh 700Lbs each. They do a pretty good job of getting the loudest ranks down to PPPP. But you need to consider that RHJ was not trying to follow established musical / organ building traditions.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by markcec View Post
              I'm not looking for inaudible—I would just like to be able to make something that sounds like an audible crescendo/decresecendo! The swell shades on this instrument create less of an effect than any instrument I've encountered in my (reasonably long) experience, and I've gotten feedback from a couple of my colleagues who agree. The organ tech is talking specifically about the top of the case rather than the enclosure. I will get back up there tomorrow (it's not easy, and I'm not great on tall ladders!) and double check the top of the swell enclosure itself. As I remember, the big pedal reeds are at the rear of the case, behind the Swell box, and speak through the Great organ (lower level), but also depend on egress through the top of the case in the back to make themselves fully felt.

              It's not a drastic problem, and the instrument and I have gotten along fine for the past three years. But it would nice if we could find a solution.
              In your first post you said the Swell was WAY too loud with the box closed and the technician is offering to fix this by doing something to the top of the organ case. What he really needs to be doing is applying sound treatment to the inside of the Swell enclosure, but that is probably not something that is practical after the organ has been built. In the quoted above, you are saying the problem is a lack of dynamic range between Swell box closed and Swell box open. Not picking on you at all, but these are two very different problems. If the problem really is a deficiency in the efficiency of the Swell Shades, it won't matter what is done to the Swell enclosure. All you will be doing is shifting the existing dynamic range to a lower decibel range. Swell Shutters are usually felted on the faces that meet each other when the shades are closed to keep them from banging. Maybe they are worn? Maybe the swell motor needs additional stages? The initial inch(!) of swell shade movement is very significant and a cheap (coarse) swell engine might allow the shades to open 2" or more the instant your foot touches the swell pedal.No matter how sensitive your right foot is, you can't do anything really expressive with a 9 stage swell engine. Better ones have 14 stages, and awesome ones have two or more sets of shades with 25 stages of movement each, so huge amounts of sound can get out of the box when the shades are wide open. Peterson sells a lot of swell engines that do with electro-mechanics what often used to be done pneumatically. What you really want is a new Swell Box. My gut tells me this is not going to happen. An organ big enough to have independent pedal reeds probably has a lot of ranks overall. There probably is a way to get a smooth, satisfying, Swell crescendo by using the Swell Box, as is, AND also the judicious use of the Swell stops. It's more work that way, and is likely the way you are doing it right now, but... it's probably as good as it gets in the present situation.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by markcec View Post
                I wonder if any here might have some insight—

                The Swell chamber of my current church's otherwise lovely organ 'leaks' sound—although the Swell shades are installed properly, when they are closed there is still WAY too much sound coming from the division. My organ tech, who had worked with the builder when the organ was installed in it's new case, recalls that the builder seemed surprised by this (but apparently no one was on hand at the time to insist that the situation be explored and remedied). The current theory is that sound may be leaking from the top of the case, and that a possible solution might be to apply some product to the top of the case that will cut down on the amount of sound penetrating the case (the Swell is located in the 'top story' of the case). However, there is a concern that this may affect the Pedal division, as the big pedal reeds speak through the top of the case.

                Any thoughts? Thanks!
                I would see if the shades are closing and sealing, if you had closed the entire box and got things fixed and sound is still pouring out check to see if the shades are interlocking with each other or replace them with double slatted with stuffing in between.
                Instruments:
                22/8 Button accordion.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just a thought

                  Have you checked that the lack of crescendo is audible (inaudible?) in the body of the building rather than it simply appearing that way at the console (if it's a detached console which gives you the same sound as the congregation then you probably already know)? Sometimes, en-fenetre type consoles mask the dynamic changes, presumably due to the sound being conducted through the structure, as well as because of sheer proximity to the pipework. It rather depends on the layout of the divisions within the case.

                  Comment

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