Electronic Powered Pipe Organ Annoying Crescendo Pedal Sound?

[Timberolic]

Hello, to whom it may be interesting,

My church has a pipe organ that is powered by an organ console that is electronic. What I have noticed that is extremely troublesome is a few things:

1.) The Crescendo Pedal, when pushed in, begins making an extremely loud high pitched sound in the pipe room.

2.) The same thing happens when activating most stops of the The Great manual, like 8' Diapson, etc. the smaller ones usually don't make the sound, but 4' or more, and it makes this high pitched sound.

3.) This high pitched sound also occurs when turning on the "Sforz" setting, but it's ridiculously loud.

I don't mind if an organ service is needed, whatever is needed will help. I do prefer if there may be a setting causing it.

If absolutely neccessary, I will make a video of it if it is necessary. Thanks for any assistance.

[Admin]

My first thought was that the high pitched sound was from the organ's power supply, but I think it more likely you have a cipher that occurs with full organ combinations. Do you hear the sound if you engage all the stops manually, without the use of the Sfz or Crescendo? Find the fewest combination of stops that produces the sound, and determine which pipe its coming from. If it's coming from several pipes, you may have a stuck keyboard contact or a problem with organ's electronics.

[Timberolic]

My first thought was that the high pitched sound was from the organ's power supply, but I think it more likely you have a cipher that occurs with full organ combinations. Do you hear the sound if you engage all the stops manually, without the use of the Sfz or Crescendo? Find the fewest combination of stops that produces the sound, and determine which pipe its coming from. If it's coming from several pipes, you may have a stuck keyboard contact or a problem with organ's electronics.

I have not tried doing a full organ on The Great manual, but yes, only some make this sound. The swell is fine, and so are the pedals. For example, (The Great manual only):

Crescendo Pedal Off, Diapson 8' on, makes high pitched noise.

Crescendo Pedal Off, 4' Flute, no high pitched sound. However, upon gradually pushing in the pedal more and more, the high pitched sound returns.

And as to a stuck keyboard contact, I don't believe any keys are stuck. I will check the next time I go, and see if there's an issue. Other than that, the pipe room is locked, and I have no access to it unless I request it from the church owner.

[VaPipeorgantuner]

I have not tried doing a full organ on The Great manual, but yes, only some make this sound. The swell is fine, and so are the pedals. For example, (The Great manual only):

Crescendo Pedal Off, Diapson 8' on, makes high pitched noise.

Crescendo Pedal Off, 4' Flute, no high pitched sound. However, upon gradually pushing in the pedal more and more, the high pitched sound returns.

And as to a stuck keyboard contact, I don't believe any keys are stuck. I will check the next time I go, and see if there's an issue. Other than that, the pipe room is locked, and I have no access to it unless I request it from the church owner.

First off, you need to do a bit more diagnostic work so that when the church calls the pipe organ repair person they will know exactly what to tell him. Before we go down that road, however, I urge you to NOT try to fix this yourself as it could result in a more expensive service cost to the church.

OK...on to how to locate the trouble. with the organ on, but ALL stops turned off on the organ...you need to turn on the stops in the Great division ONE at a time to see which stops cause the organ to produce the noise you refer to. Once you have identified ALL of the stops that cause the ceipher and have written down the stop names you can locate the offending note by drawing one of the stops that causes the sound...slowly go up the keyboard in the general area where you think the sound might be (if it is a high pitch sound, it most obviously isn't going to be on the bottom octave of the keyboard). As you depress each key you will notice that a pair of sounds will occur until you press the offending key and you will hear only the note that is stuck on. Sometimes, when you press the right key the sound will get slightly louder if it is only one note in one rank that is the trouble, but since it seems like you said that this happens in multiple stops you may or may not hear the change in loudness or pitch. You should, by process of elimination, be able to locate the exact note on the keyboard.

You didn't say who built the organ (not the console, but the actual chests and pipework) and this would be useful for the organ technician to know as it may also help him/her to identify the exact nature of the malfunction. If the organ has a solid-state relay, it is possible, but unlikely that the trouble is located there...from your initial description it sounds like the trouble is in the actual wind chest related to the pipes that sound with no key(s) depressed.

for what it's worth, a stuck key contact would not necessarily be visible by a key that is dipped from it's normal "off" position (unlike a mechanical action organ, where that might be the case). A loose screw or a paper clip that managed to find it's way to the area where the key contacts are (either under or behind the key sticks) could easily cause this type of trouble, yet it would not be visible.

Rick in VA

[Leisesturm]

I think Admin's nailed it. It's a cipher. Can't tell exactly where. I think a competent organ tech will be able to determine where it is, and how to fix it, as soon as they sit down at the console. There is a really nice 3M organ of some size that I would play much more often if it didn't cipher so often. I don't have access or authority to do anything about problems I find there either. So I just stay away :-(

[regeron]

Very good advice, Admin and Rick. If there are two or more ciphers, it makes me wonder whether it's actually that many, or just one note on a unit organ.

Timberolic, I'm not sure of your organ knowledge, so pardon me if I'm explaining something that you already understand.

On some organs, each stop has its rank or row or pipes. On other organs, for a variety of reasons, a single rank of pipes might be activated by more than one stop. Sometimes you'll see a nice solo trumpet on one manual and the same trumpet is available on another manual, to add versatility. Another common situation is when something like a Swell 16' Gedeckt is duplicated in the pedal. This is called BORROWING.

Another version of this idea is to have an extended rank of pipes for one manual. Imagine that your 8' Diapason has 61 pipe, one for each note of the keyboard. It would be possible for a second system of wiring to go from your keyboard to the pipework but connecting to pipes one octave above the 8' Diapason; this would be labeled 4' to indicate the octave displacement and the name could be Diapason or Octave or Principal or.... There is potential for even more wiring to accommodate 2' (2 octaves above) or 2 2/3' (1 octave + a perfect fifth above, eg. play a C and hear the G one and a half octaves higher).

Note that for the 4' version of this stop, when you get to the top octave, you would normally have no pipes left. In most instances then, another octave of pipework is added. What was originally a rank of 61 pipes is now a rank of 73 (61 pipes + one more octave [12 notes]). The same concept would allow for extension to accomodate a 2 2/3' or 2'.

IF the organ in question is a unit organ or at least uses some form of borrowing, and depending on the nature of the cipher, I assume that drawing any stop connected to the rank in question will make that ciphering note speak.

The fact that you hear a 'loud' note and the fact that it appears on single Diapason stops but not on Flutes leads me to wonder about this possibility.

Timberolic - could you also let us know how many manuals and possible provide a list of stop names?

Good luck. Again, Admin and Rick's advice is very good. Go through the organ stop by stop to see which ones cause this sound. Let us know which stops are the problem ones. There are some fantastic people on here with a wealth of experience and knowledge, who are willing to offer good advice.

[Leisesturm]

I am normally as full of curiosity and interest into the technical details of organ malfuctions as some posters in this thread, but in the present instance, I for one do not think it can be supported. The o.p. is clearly not sufficiently experienced to do further diagnosis of the instrument. The only thing to do is to call a qualified repair person and let them see to it. Interesting speculations as to the location and nature of the cipher are shared by this writer, but are nonetheless, pointless. Especially since the o.p. notes that they do not have access to the organ chambers.

Unsaid, is the exact nature of the o.p. relationship to the instrument. It would appear that they are not the organist. It is actually possible that there is no organist. It is very possible that this is an organ that is not in regular or even occasional use by this church at the present time. In the possible event that this in fact is the case, there is one thing and one thing only for the o.p. to do: obtain one time authorized access to the organ pipe chambers. Nothing can be accomplished without this access. Assuming that access to the pipes can be arranged, the next step is to set conditions at the console such as to produce the cipher. The final step is to enter the pipe chamber, locate the pipe(s) that is (are) making sound and pull them from the palletboard. I doubt it (they) will be missed in the short term. They are valuable, however, treat them very gently. Place them in an area where they will be safe from casual harm.

I really hesitate giving this advice because Rick is correct: inexperienced people can do a lot of expensive damage in pipe chambers because organ pipes are made of brittle and/or easily deformable materials and the spaces are usually cramped and require MUCH care to move around in. FWIW.

[Timberolic]

I am normally as full of curiosity and interest into the technical details of organ malfuctions as some posters in this thread, but in the present instance, I for one do not think it can be supported. The o.p. is clearly not sufficiently experienced to do further diagnosis of the instrument. The only thing to do is to call a qualified repair person and let them see to it. Interesting speculations as to the location and nature of the cipher are shared by this writer, but are nonetheless, pointless. Especially since the o.p. notes that they do not have access to the organ chambers.

Unsaid, is the exact nature of the o.p. relationship to the instrument. It would appear that they are not the organist. It is actually possible that there is no organist. It is very possible that this is an organ that is not in regular or even occasional use by this church at the present time. In the possible event that this in fact is the case, there is one thing and one thing only for the o.p. to do: obtain one time authorized access to the organ pipe chambers. Nothing can be accomplished without this access. Assuming that access to the pipes can be arranged, the next step is to set conditions at the console such as to produce the cipher. The final step is to enter the pipe chamber, locate the pipe(s) that is (are) making sound and pull them from the palletboard. I doubt it (they) will be missed in the short term. They are valuable, however, treat them very gently. Place them in an area where they will be safe from casual harm.

I really hesitate giving this advice because Rick is correct: inexperienced people can do a lot of expensive damage in pipe chambers because organ pipes are made of brittle and/or easily deformable materials and the spaces are usually cramped and require MUCH care to move around in. FWIW.

He hit it out of the park.

Just as a note, I'm new to the organ, and am not fully intelligent on it. So yes, there are some new terms being presented to my vocabulary.

And what you said is true, our church currently does not have an organist, nor am I the organist. I do plan to be the current organist, however.

And it's not that I can not obtain access to the pipe chamber room. It's just the awkwardness of asking, since the organ has not been used since God knows how long. If preferred, I can create a video of the organ console, with the stops that produce this sound. And for those saying that it produces a "note sound", that is not right according to my experience, since it's the same distinct sound. I will again, analyze this once I have an oppourtunity to check it out, which will hopefully be sometime this week.

[Timberolic]

UPDATE:

I have returned to the organ, and observed a lot of new things:

1.) There are a few of dead notes.
2.) The Swell and Pedal are still fine, but The Great has some 2,4, and 8's who make this high pitched sound as well.
3.) Upon finishing the usage of the organ, I heard this G note below Middle C being played, but no keys were pressed, so I turned off all stops, but the sound was still residing. I was so confused.

All in all, I have also found out the organ will probably never have a player again, since the church is starting to modernize it's music, which the organ can't keep up with. So the hopes of being the organist have been diminished :(

[myorgan]

1.) There are a few of dead notes.
2.) The Swell and Pedal are still fine, but The Great has some 2,4, and 8's who make this high pitched sound as well.
3.) Upon finishing the usage of the organ, I heard this G note below Middle C being played, but no keys were pressed, so I turned off all stops, but the sound was still residing. I was so confused.

Timberolic,

My best guess is that #2 and #3 are related issues. In organ terminology, the pitches that continue are called "ciphers." That is when a note is stuck on, either with or without stops engaged or keys pressed. The cause (& solution) to a cipher could be as simple as a piece of dust/dirt holding the pallet (valve letting the air into the pipe) open. Alternately, the cause could be something broken, worn out, or that needs to be re-leathered to be fixed. It all depends on the organ manufacturer, construction, and action mechanism (method of translating a key pressed to filling the pipe with air) what the most likely repair would be.

That is probably why the church stopped using the organ, and figured they couldn't afford repairs or to continue using it. That's too bad.:'(

Michael

[Timberolic]

The organ not being used is debatable, because around 2-6 years ago, the console was down stairs being used for nothing. Last year, or in 2015, the console was moved to the balcony, where the pipe room is presumed to be.

I also suspect that a bird, a birds nest, or some sort of animal is potentially within the pipe room, because I have heard a lot of chirping yesterday that was very audible. But I can't guarantee it, since the walls of the church are relatively thin, and it could've been from outside.

I will be sure to make a video next time, to show the console, the wall blocking off the pipe room, and the issue(s).

Background Info: The console says it was made in 1975, so using that number, the pipes are probably around 40 years old.

[Admin]

I will be sure to make a video next time, to show the console, the wall blocking off the pipe room, and the issue(s).

I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by this. The consensus here is that your issue(s) is ciphers. Apart from ciphers the only other explanation that I can think of is a wind leak. Regardless, the fact that you don't have access to the chamber makes any explanation unprovable and moot. Due to your inexperience, your potential for causing additional damage is a concern.

[Timberolic]

I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by this. The consensus here is that your issue(s) is ciphers. Apart from ciphers the only other explanation that I can think of is a wind leak. Regardless, the fact that you don't have access to the chamber makes any explanation unprovable and moot. Due to your inexperience, your potential for causing additional damage is a concern.

It may very well be a "cipher" or wind leak, but I don't plan to touch anything/tamper anything in the pipe room. But a video can be deemed very helpful to pinpoint what the issue is based on professional advice. At this point I'm hoping it's just ciphers and not something bigger. Having something like a video would help.

[regeron]

A series of photographs showing the console would be helpful:
1) pic showing the nameplate of who made it and when.
2) pic(s) showing the stopknobs in a way that we can read the stop names.
3) pic of the case or pipe chamber from the outside.

These are basic, but will start to give us clues to the kind of organ and potentially the kinds of problems possible.

A video or other recording that lets us hear the ongoing sound would also be helpful.

You have stated that your knowledge of the organ is limited. That's fine - we all start somewhere. But we will need more specific information in order to be of any help.

The suggestions to avoid going into the pipe chamber for fear of causing damage are legitimate. We can be well-meaning, but if we don't understand what's what, we can easily (accidentally) cause harm to the instrument.

[Timberolic]

Hey, guys, quick update:

I apologize for bumping this 3 month old thread, but I'd like to inform that the issue is still at hands, I just got very busy to have a chance to give it a look.

I decided sometime this week, I will be making a video featuring the console (with whereabouts and such), and the sounds I hear trying to play some stops.

At the moment, however, I am NOT calling a organ tuner/repair man. I do not have that authority and have a bad feeling I wouldn't get permission, but for now, a diagnosis would be nice. Stay tuned fellas.