Trinity is doing an about-face

[steverose]

..........

[michaelhoddy]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Not too surprising in the long run though, especially since Trinity probably feels some need to keep up in the Manhattan Episcopal parish new organ race of recent years (the Quoirin at Ascension, the Taylor & Boody at Grace, the Schoensteins at St James, the Dobson at St. Thomas, and of course old Aeolian-Skinner monsters at St. Bart's and St. John The Divine). Manhattan is one of those places where the money always seems to be able to be found for whatever the fancies of the current music director are.

There's no substantial Rosales organ in Manhattan yet that I can think of. It will be curious to see how this fits into the landscape.

[jjcricket1958]

After reading that article, I am reminded of the Old Testament scripture.....”Blessed correction from God.”

[Silken Path]

I was amused at the "soul numbing" part about having to play a digital. That must have made him a "numb soul." Let's hope he doesn't end up forever playing an old Hammond spinet in the lobby of the devil's Best Western.

[AllenAnalog]

So is this the first M&O being kicked out? I wonder what will happen to it?

It has two consoles that control two 85-stop organs but was Opus 1 and was built in 2002 so it's 16 years old now and probably a much less sophisticated tone generation scheme than their more recent instruments. And some of the electronics may not be wearing well at this age since I believe it ran on server-grade rack PCs running Unix.

The M&O web site says that it was conceived as a temporary solution until a proper pipe organ could be installed. Quoting from the M&O website, "the leadership and vestry of Trinity Church affirmed their long-term commitment to the instrument in 2007."

Since Rosales has had problems completing organs in the past, I also wonder if he will again partner with another builder like he did in LA?

[beel m]

Interesting that world-class organists aplenty have performed on the M&O organ (including a definitive, to me, performance of the Franck Third Choral by Alexander Frey on Youtube- with Cameron turning pages!) and the only criticism I ever heard about was from the present music director. No doubt some Trinity members felt their extravagantly-wealthy church deserved a status-symbol pipe organ, but they weren't finding fault with the M&O, that I know of.

R, Bill

[voet]

I went to the M&O website yesterday and looked over their opus list. It seems odd that they do not publish stop lists of their organs. I found the Trinity specs on the church website. Since most organists like to peruse specifications, I wonder what their rationale is for not publicizing them.

[jbird604]

Quite a peculiar story. "Soul numbing." And the Schlicker was "tendonitis central." Of course, there is rationale behind each disparagement. Yes, the Schlicker was (apparently) a somewhat limited and quirky instrument, ill-suited for a broad musical program, a relic of the ill-conceived Baroque tracker madness that consumed much of the organ world a few decades ago. The replacement Noack does sound like a much more flexible and pleasant instrument, and a bargain to boot.

And as to dumping on the M&O, such a wealthy and prominent church probably does have many members who think they ought to have a prestigious pipe organ that will draw acclaim from around the world instead of the digital, as good as it's said to be, which has continued to draw disapproving smirks from the hoity toity.

I certainly don't begrudge any church that can afford it the right to have the biggest and best pipe organ possible. Nobody in the organ world, not even diehard digital enthusiasts like me, wants to see pipe organs disappear. I would love to visit Trinity one day and hear the no doubt magnificent Rosales they will have. But as Burdick (former Trinity organst) remarked, "I think Jesus likes the sound of electronic organs just fine."

It does make Wachner seem more than a little bit of a prima donna, when he blows into town and rather quickly determines that neither of the church's existing organs is worthy of his talent. I do hope he's not really like that.

[michaelhoddy]

Interesting that world-class organists aplenty have performed on the M&O organ (including a definitive, to me, performance of the Franck Third Choral by Alexander Frey on Youtube- with Cameron turning pages!) and the only criticism I ever heard about was from the present music director. No doubt some Trinity members felt their extravagantly-wealthy church deserved a status-symbol pipe organ, but they weren't finding fault with the M&O, that I know of.

R, Bill

That's the quirky thing with the mainline church scene in Manhattan- there's apparently enough money around to make things like this possible. There are certainly enough actual pipe organs in the City that can't hold a candle to the M&O, but when all the uptown Episcopalians in other parishes are getting new boutique pipe organs, I suppose there's the urge at some level to keep up. It's always a real question for all of us at which point something ceases being about aesthetic and become about indulgence.

If you look at most of the other actual pipe organs removed in the examples I listed earlier to make way for the new ones, it generally wasn't so much a question of necessity as it was one of what was out of fashion, and what was in. The Quoirin at Ascension replaced a substantial 1960's Holtkamp which itself replaced a substantial E.M. Skinner that fell out of fashion. The Taylor & Boody at Grace replaced a substantial double 1960's Schlicker which also replaced a double E.M. Skinner. Both of these Skinners would be celebrated in the current fashions as utter masterpieces. In most other cities, there'd be a big drive to restore the Holtkamp or the Schlicker.

And, as we've discussed before here, if William Self had the restraint to leave the Harrison Aeolian Skinner at St. Thomas tonally alone in the 1960's and focus on mechanical repairs only, it'd probably be a great story of preservation like St. John the Divine rather than being chucked when the whims of that music director went out of fashion or the organ fell apart. Don't get me wrong, I think the new organs are all heirloom-worthy works of art, and feel spoiled to live so close to a city with such organ riches. But in most cases, in hindsight, these weren't the first fine organs to grace those spaces.

[michaelhoddy]

Here is that performance of the Franck Choral No. 3 on the "soul numbing" M&O, for reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjNezPgX56k

Thanks for sharing this Bill, I had not heard this performance before. Wonderful interpretation! I have definitely heard a lot of pipe organs do worse.

[jbird604]

Lovely! Didn't numb me at all, perhaps I have no soul. But then I'm not the one playing it either.

This actually sounds better than other recordings I've heard of the Trinity M&O. I have some CD's I got directly from M&O, Mr. Marshall himself playing it, as I recall, but the examples on that disc don't show it off quite as well as this one. Perhaps some tweaking has been done since the original setup.

Trinity isn't a huge church, of course, and perhaps one would wish for a tad more sustain time from the room. But that is quite impossible I'm sure, and there's no reason to adulterate the sound with artificial reverb. I have to believe that if this organ were set up side by side with the pipe organ in one of the world's greatest churches it would hold its own, and many players might find it more agreeable to play than the real pipes, given the vicissitudes of pipe organ tuning and maintenance.

The tones are as lovely as any that can be produced by real pipes, because these are the sounds of real pipes. It is too bad that the Thigpen subs were not left on it (if that is the case), as they bridge the last major gap between speakers and pipes, making possible the creation of utterly palpable tones at infrasonic frequencies, rivaling the largest 32' or even 64' pipe stops. Whatever subs it has, they seem adequate, at least from this distance with headphones on.

I do hope this musical marvel will find an even better home once it leaves Trinity.

[j reimer]

Lovely! Didn't numb me at all, perhaps I have no soul. But then I'm not the one playing it either.

jbird,
It didn't numb me either, even if I am listening via loudspeakers (gasp!), and via YouTube. And if body language counts for anything, it didn't numb the player on this particular occasion, either.

John Reimer

[myorgan]

Here is that performance of the Franck Choral No. 3 on the "soul numbing" M&O, for reference:

The sound was great, but I had to stop watching--too much over-the-top theatrics for me. The mouth agape at the end made me wish I had a slingshot with some dog poo.O:-) Otherwise, I'll just polish the bench to see what slips off.:devil:

Michael

[beel m]

The sound was great, but I had to stop watching--too much over-the-top theatrics for me. The mouth agape at the end made me wish I had a slingshot with some dog poo.O:-) Otherwise, I'll just polish the bench to see what slips off.:devil:

Michael

Alex Frey is the "real deal"- I know peeps that went to WCC when he was there. Some think his conducting (which he's done around the world) is mannered, also, but that's the way he is----no Karajan, for sure.
And... if I were playing that piece in concert, and CAMERON CARPENTER was turning pages, I'd do far worse things! :-) :-)

R, Bill

[twnelson]

The tones are as lovely as any that can be produced by real pipes, because these are the sounds of real pipes. It is too bad that the Thigpen subs were not left on it (if that is the case), as they bridge the last major gap between speakers and pipes, making possible the creation of utterly palpable tones at infrasonic frequencies, rivaling the largest 32' or even 64' pipe stops. Whatever subs it has, they seem adequate, at least from this distance with headphones on.

The Trinity installation was pre-Thigpen. The subs were specially designed by Definitive Tech and were given the model name 'Trinity'. About the size of a small refrigerator. I heard just one of them at M&O's facility and it was mind-boggling. Moved enough air in the large demo theater to give a good approximation of a real 32' flue.

--- Tom