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Uses of Twelth, Seventeenth, Sesquialtera mixtures and other Diapason mutations.

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  • Uses of Twelth, Seventeenth, Sesquialtera mixtures and other Diapason mutations.

    I've been trying to find out what these stops would be used for.

    I know that the twelth gives more colour to a Diapason chorus of 8, 4 and 2.
    I also know that the seventeenth makes a Diapason chorus sound more like a French Plein Jeu.

    What would it sound like if you pulled the Diapasons at 8, 4, 2 2/3, 2 and 1 3/5? Would that be a good combination to contrast from the Cornet V (Flutes at the same pitches)?

  • #2
    Those pitches are part of the harmonic series. They are intended to be used with an 8' stop. They are very effective at "coloring" the sound. For example, you can get a synthetic clarinet sound with an 8' flute and the Sesquialtera, which brings on the 2 2/3 and 1 3/5 pitches. You can also get a synthetic oboe like sound by using a 4' flute with the Sesquialtera.
    Names like Twelfth and Fifteenth and Seventeenth refer to degrees of the scale counting up from the 8' pitch. So if you draw an 8' diapason, the 4' is the Cctave (the eighth tone of the scale) the Twelfth is the fifth sounding pitch above that or 2 2/3', and the Fifteenth is the same as the 2' pitch. The Seventeenth is equivalent to 1 3/5.

    These stops are called mutations. They can be in either principal or flute stops. Generally the principal mutations are used to build up the plenum and the flute versions are used as solo stops. Early English and American instruments in the English tradition often included third sounding (1 3/5') ranks in the mixtures to give a reedy quality to the principal chorus. This went out of fashion in the 20th century.

    Hope this helps.

    Bill
    Bill

    My home organ: Content M5800 as a midi controller for Hauptwerk

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by voet View Post
      Those pitches are part of the harmonic series. They are intended to be used with an 8' stop. They are very effective at "coloring" the sound.
      Bill is right on the money here. Another source for understanding basic registration can be found in any Hammond user guide or Allen organ owner's manual. In Allen's manuals, they provide a brief description of what each stop is used for on the organ in question.

      Try downloading some 3-manual organ owner's manuals from Allen's website to obtain a basic understanding of the pitch of a stop and what it represents: https://www.allenorgan.com/www/suppo...rsmanuals.html. Click on More Organs, and choose a larger MDS or ADC organ manual (the higher numbers).

      Michael
      Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
      • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
      • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
      • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Eddy67716 View Post
        Would that be a good combination to contrast from the Cornet V (Flutes at the same pitches)?

        Comment


        • #5
          Leisesturm,

          While you won't find them listed as a "Diapason" per se, they do exist with other names. For example, there is a Quinte 2-2/3', Twelfth 2-2/3', as well as others. Of course, they're not listed as Diapasons, but they belong to the family.

          That said, Eddy would be well-served to read up on the materials already available (i.e. Hammond & Allen manuals, or maybe even the website: organstops.org).

          Michael
          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
          • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

          Comment


          • #6
            And, of course, all these stops are found, at least partially, in various mixture stops. The twelfth 2-2/3 being especially common as is the nineteenth 1-1/3. A seventeenth 1-3/5 will be partially used in a Tierce Mixture, Terz-Cymbal, or, perhaps a Scharf.

            Comment


            • #7
              They're relatively common decompose in European continental organs, and in American organs that echo these traditions, often on the Great (or equivalent) division. In fact, if you see those pitches decompose in a Great division, at least at 2-2/3' and 1-3/5', chances are excellent they are diapason tone.

              At least in my experience, the diapason Nineteenth 1-1/3' is less common, as this voice is most often a flute (Larigot) or similar.

              Comment


              • #8
                Instruments:
                22/8 Button accordion.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've had two Allens with a 2-2/3 foot diapason on the great (both named "Quinte"). One was an ADC-4000 and the other is the current MDS-45 at church. I like adding it to the 8/4/2 chorus at times for the quasi-reediness it adds, along with something of a boost in the body of the tone. Unlike a flute 2-2/3 (nazard, etc.), the Quinte doesn't change the 8' stop to a synthetic reed, but it definitely adds some growl to the ensemble.

                  The character of a Quinte is going to vary a lot from one organ to another of course. But I find it very useful. I remember starting a thread about the Quinte stop years ago when I first discovered it.
                  John
                  ----------
                  *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

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                  • #10
                    Ben has made a good point, and it goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway), Mutation stops are quite different animals than Mixtures, in that Mixtures "break back" as they progress up the manual to keep them from being too shrill. Mutations, on the other hand, do not "break back" and depending on pitch, are voiced to extend the entire compass of the manual and blend in with other stops. Of course Mutations of 1-1/3', or 1-3/5' pitches may not extend the entire compass of the manual, as pipes that small are hard to maintain in-tune.

                    Michael

                    P.S. Does anyone know offhand if the Sesquialtera II "breaks back" or remains the same throughout the compass of the manual? I forget. I've also never played an organ with a stop of that name or nature.
                    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Sesquialtera II is not supposed to break-back, but it may have a limited compass, though that happens more often with a Cornet, I think. The Cornet especially at the top end, the Sequialtera for the last part of the top octave, if limited at all.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by toodles View Post
                        The Sesquialtera II is not supposed to break-back, but it may have a limited compass, though that happens more often with a Cornet, I think. The Cornet especially at the top end, the Sequialtera for the last part of the top octave, if limited at all.
                        Thank you, Toodles. I guess I didn't forget as much as I thought.

                        Michael
                        Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                        • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                        • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                        • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Can someone please explain the use of a Sesquialtera? I've got a few sample sets with one and I don't really like them. For principal chorus, of course, I use mixture(s) and sometimes a twelfth. For solo stops, a flute and a twelfth. For a Cornet, 8', 4', 2' 2 2/3' and 1 3/5' flutes. But the Sesquialtera, to me, doesn't sound right in any of these circumstances. They seem loud and shrill. At least my examples.

                          Any suggestions?

                          Tom

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tbeck View Post
                            Can someone please explain the use of a Sesquialtera? I've got a few sample sets with one and I don't really like them. For principal chorus, of course, I use mixture(s) and sometimes a twelfth. For solo stops, a flute and a twelfth. For a Cornet, 8', 4', 2' 2 2/3' and 1 3/5' flutes. But the Sesquialtera, to me, doesn't sound right in any of these circumstances. They seem loud and shrill. At least my examples.

                            Any suggestions?

                            Tom
                            Sesquialteras are just an unbroken 12th an 17th mixture. they're not designed to be a chorus mixture, their purpose is consistently that of a solo voice. try combining it with an 8' stopped flute and a 4' principal, which is how I have always been taught that they should have been used. They are also good for trio sonatas, and they actually blend really well with trumpet stops.
                            On a similar note, I find it odd that a Cornet is nowadays made up of flutes, as in all the examples of Baroque french organs I have played they have been made up of wide scaled principal pipes. I was with a notable French organ builder a while ago talking about the evolution of the French organ and how it came to differ so greatly from the organs in england and northern europe at the time, and he said that the Cornet was designed to strengthen the upper octaves of the trumpet stops of early organs, as they were usually very quiet in the treble. That would make sense as to why teu were made up of principals rather than flutes, as the flutes would have been drowned out.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Tom,

                              A Sesquialtera would provide slight brilliance to a chorus--generally a Diapason Chorus of 8'4'2'. It sounds like the Sesquialtera stops you've experienced haven't been properly voiced. On a small pipe organ, a Sesquialtera II was often used as a Mixture on the Great. It can also be combined with an 8' stop for a solo. It would generally never be played in the upper octave, which is why sometimes it isn't reproduced in the upper octave--both for shrillness and due to the difficulty keeping it in tune.

                              You can read more about the historical use of the Sesquialtera here: http://www.organstops.org/s/Sesquialtera.html. Another stop commonly used, but of different composition, is the Rausch Quint(e), which was used for the same purpose. Information on that stop can be found here: http://www.organstops.org/r/Rauschquinte.html. I have played an organ with a Rausch Quint(e) II in the Great as the ONLY mixture on the organ. It was a Hook & Hastings from 1906.

                              Hope this helps.

                              Michael


                              P.S. This was my response this AM, but evidently I didn't post it before I logged out. Sorry if I missed other information.
                              Last edited by myorgan; 03-17-2018, 02:32 PM. Reason: correction
                              Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                              • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                              • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                              • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

                              Comment

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