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Uses of Twelth, Seventeenth, Sesquialtera mixtures and other Diapason mutations.

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    #16
    Thanks for the responses.

    Michael, I'll have to "tone down" the Sesquialtera on one of the sample sets I'm currently playing and see how it goes. Right now, I don't use it at all. I think maybe it's the 17th I don''t like. I normally only use a 17th in a Cornet.

    Tom

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      #17
      The Pilgrim Uniting (Congregational) Church in Adelaide has those five ranks on the Great and the five flute ranks needed to make a cornet V on the Choir and a Cornet IV with a flute 8 in the Solo.

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        #18
        I think that what Leisesturm meant was that a diapason stop at 2 2/3' wouldn't be listed as a diapason. It would be called either a "2 2/3' Twelfth" or "2 2/3' Quint". Similar name designation limits:
        - the diapason rank at 1 3/5' would be a "1 3/5' Seventeenth". not 1 3/5' diapason.
        - the lowest two principals on any division (manual or pedal) are listed as Principal and Octave, eg. Principal 8'/Octave 4' or Principal 16'/Octave 8'. Note spelling options: Principal/Prinzipal and Octave/Oktav.
        - flute ranks at 2 2/3' are Nasard/Nazard/Nasat
        - flute ranks at 1 3/5' are Larigot.

        The Pilgrim Uniting Church in Adelaide follows these practices, (but not the ones relating to Principal/Octave) .
        https://www.pilgrim.org.au/about/organ2.htm

        ***
        Regarding the Sesquialtera, my only experience with it is as a solo stop. My understanding is that it was typically found in Germanic Ruckpositivs where it would help to support the melody for congregational singing, as well as being available for non-accompanying solo lines. The Ruckpositiv would be the division hanging right above and behind the heads of the congregation, so it wouldn't have to be too loud to lead easily.
        Last edited by regeron; 03-21-2018, 06:34 AM.

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          #19
          Originally posted by regeron View Post
          I think that what Leisesturm meant was that a diapason stop at 2 2/3' wouldn't be listed as a diapason. It would be called either a "2 2/3' Twelfth" or "2 2/3' Quint". Similar name designation limits:

          - flute ranks at 1 3/5' are Larigot.

          The Pilgrim Uniting Church in Adelaide follows these practices, (but not the ones relating to Principal/Octave) .
          https://www.pilgrim.org.au/about/organ2.htm

          ***
          Regarding the Sesquialtera, my only experience with it is as a solo stop. My understanding is that it was typically found in Germanic Ruckpositivs where it would help to support the melody for congregational singing, as well as being available for non-accompanying solo lines. The Ruckpositiv would be the division hanging right above and behind the heads of the congregation, so it wouldn't have to be too loud to lead easily.
          One correction to regeron's excellent descriptions, Flute ranks at 1 3/5' are called Tierce. A Larigot is 1 1/3'
          Bill

          My home organ: Content M5800

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            #20
            Originally posted by voet View Post
            One correction to regeron's excellent descriptions, Flute ranks at 1 3/5' are called Tierce. A Larigot is 1 1/3'
            Thanks for the correction.

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              #21
              Originally posted by myorgan View Post

              P.S. Does anyone know offhand if the Sesquialtera II "breaks back" or remains the same throughout the compass of the manual? I forget. I've also never played an organ with a stop of that name or nature.
              Most of the sesquialtera stops that I run into as a tuner do break back in the sense that the pitch sometimes 'inverts' (the 1 3/5 stop goes from being above the quint to being below the quint). The pipes eventually become so short, particularly with slide-tuned pipes, that the tuning slide interferes with the pipe being able to speak properly, and the tuning is SO sensitive that it becomes impractical. This usually happens at top G, so the inversion is not very noticable, and is out of the intended range for use as a solo stop.

              The 'typical' use of the sesquialtera with a stopped flute or principal at 8' pitch is as a solo voice in baroque literature from both France and Germany. Often the baroque period organs had shorter manual compasses than is normal on a modern pipe organ.

              Rick in VA

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                #22
                Originally posted by VaPipeorgantuner View Post
                Often the baroque period organs had shorter manual compasses than is normal on a modern pipe organ.

                Rick in VA
                (Modern organs go from C2 up to C7).

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                  #23
                  Rick,

                  Thank you so much for the informative post. You understood my question exactly, and provided a comprehensive response.

                  I had forgotten about the shorter manual compass in early organs, so what you posted related to that makes tons of sense too. Thanks again for such a complete response. All you left out was the specific scales of the pipes.

                  Michael
                  Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                  • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                  • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                  • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 6 Pianos

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by myorgan View Post
                    Tom,

                    A Sesquialtera would provide slight brilliance to a chorus--generally a Diapason Chorus of 8'4'2'. It sounds like the Sesquialtera stops you've experienced haven't been properly voiced. On a small pipe organ, a Sesquialtera II was often used as a Mixture on the Great. It can also be combined with an 8' stop for a solo. It would generally never be played in the upper octave, which is why sometimes it isn't reproduced in the upper octave--both for shrillness and due to the difficulty keeping it in tune.

                    You can read more about the historical use of the Sesquialtera here: http://www.organstops.org/s/Sesquialtera.html. Another stop commonly used, but of different composition, is the Rausch Quint(e), which was used for the same purpose. Information on that stop can be found here: http://www.organstops.org/r/Rauschquinte.html. I have played an organ with a Rausch Quint(e) II in the Great as the ONLY mixture on the organ. It was a Hook & Hastings from 1906.

                    Hope this helps.

                    Michael


                    P.S. This was my response this AM, but evidently I didn't post it before I logged out. Sorry if I missed other information.

                    Just a note for the sake of completeness: The sesqialtera in some older organs, especially ones built by Ernest M. Skinner, is sometimes called a "Grave" or "Grave Mixture" (cf: Skinner original instrument in St. Philips Church, Battle Creek, MI. There is a Grave (2 2/3, 1 3/5, no breakback) in the Great division.)

                    Tony
                    Home: Johannus Opus 370

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by Melos Antropon View Post
                      Just a note for the sake of completeness: The sesqialtera in some older organs, especially ones built by Ernest M. Skinner, is sometimes called a "Grave" or "Grave Mixture" (cf: Skinner original instrument in St. Philips Church, Battle Creek, MI. There is a Grave (2 2/3, 1 3/5, no breakback) in the Great division.)

                      Tony
                      ...And to further complicate things, the Great Grave Mixture II is commonly 2-2/3' + 2' in other work, such as Jamison's Austin designs, among others.

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