Are Hybrid/Combination Organs a good or bad idea?

[benphillips]

I am an organist a a moderately sized Methodist Church in West Tennessee. We have an 3/18 Pilcher and Sons circa 1930. It does the job but in the about 700 seat sanctuary it could use some more power and sound diversity. The console has to go. It is unreliable and lacking of features. I am a big proponent of digital organs, but there is no way the congregation would ditch the pipes for speakers, understandably. My dream is to purchase something like a Rodgers Infinity 361 and attach the pipes to it. I am getting a consultation from a dealer this week. My teacher and mentor has lots of reservations about the intonation and quality of these hybrid instruments. I have played an Infinity 361 and thoroughly enjoyed it. What are some pros and cons? Is it easy enough to adjust the digital tuning so that this isn't and issue? How should the church move forward?

Thank You!

[myorgan]

Ben,

Welcome to the Forum! I hope you continue to participate here long after your question is answered.

The answer to your question is, "Yes!"

It appears your organ still has the pneumatic setting of the combination action (my pipe organ does as well), and I can understand the age and concerns with the console. However, my first inclination is to think, "First, do no harm." I was unable to find the stoplist of your organ online, but I'm assuming because of the manufacturer and genre, it is probably mostly 8', 4', and maybe a 2' here and there. Possibly no Mixtures and only a few Mutations.

While I understand the desire to add hybrid stops and/or console to the organ to make it more versatile for today's uses and the aggregate literature available today, my question is if you're irreversibly altering an historic instrument just to suit your needs and desires. I'm sure your teacher/mentor has also shared these discussion with you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a proponent of digital organs in many venues, however, I'm also a proponent of preserving historic instruments in an unaltered state--if the organ is truly in its original state. That said, I played a wonderful hybrid instrument at a Methodist church across the river from where I live, and found it to be quite nice. I was unable to fully test the organ because there was too much activity/noise going on, but hope to be able to do so someday.

Hybrid organs are able to adjust the pitch of the digital voices automatically, so you probably will have to do nothing to make sure the digital is in tune with the pipes. The issue arises when the digital voices stay in tune with each other, and the pipes go out of tune. Of course, we know what will get blamed.

Remember, First, do no harm!

Michael

P.S. You do know Rodgers is now owned by Johannus? Make sure the build quality is the same, and service is available.

[Havoc]

I agree with myorgan here: do no harm. If you have a historical instrument, do not harm to make it suit your taste. That organ survived almost 100 years, not so sure your taste will survive that long.

I see 3 options:
- the pipe organ is in such a condition that it just isn't the instrument that it was. Getting it overhauled will give you a worthy instrument
- you keep the pipe organ as it is and make it playable and ADD a separate digital organ. You then get 2 instruments that each have their place, repertoire and character.
- you just go digital

It all depends on the instrumental value of the pipe organ. If it is an organ that has some historical value, or has good pipework, then keep it as it is. Just do the work on it. Maybe you end up with a intrument that really can do its job but until now couldn't because of the condition it is in. Then that is all that needs to be done. Maybe you end up with a very good organ that isn't suitable for all that is demanded, then add a separate digital that is tailored for that other part you need. Then you end up with 2 very good organs, each better at its job than a compromise design.

But if even after you get the pipe organ up to standards and what you end up with is just a mediocre organ with not real historical value then I would say to just get rid of it. Integrating a mediocre organ of no historical value into a new instrument isn't worth it.

To be very complete, there is a 4th option. If the organ has no great historical value but it has very good pipework or the pipework has historical value (like being recuperated from a significant instrument or builder) then building a new pipe organ with it and adding a few missing things could be realistic. Then you could end up with a very good pipe organ that might become an historical organ in its own regard.

[beel m]

I'm coming at this from a slightly different perspective. A wealthy downtown church here in Philly got a new pipe organ some years ago, and my AGO chapter went there to see/hear it. I remember asking the organist if they reused the then-not-too-old digital 32' pedal stops (from a well-known company) from the old pipe organ. He said that they couldn't, even though Reuter was amenable, since the 32' pedal unit had been "orphaned" by its builder- that is, no parts, no service.
Since there will always be a way to "get air into the pipes", what do you do when the organ's electronic stops are "orphaned" or their builder goes out of business or "we're not going to make any more of those chips when we use up our stock since they're not used in current equipment" or... Unless your church has deep pockets, you will have to stop using those electronic stops, no?
Just a thought!

[Havoc]

I remember asking the organist if they reused the then-not-too-old digital 32' pedal stops (from a well-known company) from the old pipe organ. He said that they couldn't, even though Reuter was amenable, since the 32' pedal unit had been "orphaned" by its builder- that is, no parts, no service.

There is a difference between re-using digital stuff from 10-20 years ago and including real pipes into a NEW digital organ. What your example shows is that digital technology is very shortlived. But to take your example, there would even be no need to include the old electronics as you could just as well sample the sound of the old electronics (providing they still work) and use the sample set in a new digital organ.

Sounds idiotic to do, sampling old digital organs into new ones, but it is a valid technical solution. Compare it to simulating old processors and computers on new gear.

[beel m]

There is a difference between re-using digital stuff from 10-20 years ago and including real pipes into a NEW digital organ. What your example shows is that digital technology is very shortlived. But to take your example, there would even be no need to include the old electronics as you could just as well sample the sound of the old electronics (providing they still work) and use the sample set in a new digital organ.

Sounds idiotic to do, sampling old digital organs into new ones, but it is a valid technical solution. Compare it to simulating old processors and computers on new gear.

I was thinking along the lines of "You add digital voices to your Pilcher, and at some point the digi voices will be dead/unrepairable... if your church is on a tight budget like most, they (digi voices) won't be replaced, so you're back to the Pilcher stops. And the digi voices may go south in a shorter rather than longer time frame..."

[voet]

I remember back in the 60s when churches wanted to update older organs that had little upper work. At that time, two churches that I know of added a third manual to their 2 manual instruments. The third manual was a Positiv replete with mixtures, mutations and one or more nasal sounding Baroque reeds. These ended up being very frustrating instruments to play, because nothing was integrated. A better builder would have added upperwork that complemented the existing pipework.

Adding digital stops to your Pilcher could result in a similar fiasco unless you seek out a company that will add voices that complement what you already have. There are a number of companies that do this sort of thing and members of this forum could help you find them if you asked.

Also, regarding preserving the historic integrity of your instrument, perhaps you could leave the original console had have a second console with up to date pistons and the added digital voices. If you are thinking of a new console anyway, this might be a practical option.

[Pipeorganbuilder]

Ben,

I have serviced many of the pipe organs in West Tn. Where is this organ located? There is a nice Pilcher organ in Paris(about 25 miles east of me) that was repaired years ago by someone in Ky. It would be a shame to alter this beautiful organ.

Michael

[benphillips]

Thanks everyone for the quick responses and great advice. The organ has had many alterations that were not well documented. The historical integrity had been broken since the mid 70s. As much as I would love a grander pipe organ, there is simply not room for many improvements. Frankly, the current pipework is mediocre. I am getting consultations in the coming weeks from a Rodger's, Viscount, and Verdin dealer; a custom Johannus, walker, pheonix, and pipe organ builder, and a pipe organ company that does some digital additions as well. I am getting quotes for integration of the pipes into a prebuilt digital console, new console with more pipes, and custom addition of digital stops. I will update the thread as I know more.

[toodles]

I will be anxious to hear what your consultants offer.

The Rodgers analog organs with pipe supplements of the late 1970's and 1980's could sound very good to my ears, so I think your explorations are worthwhile.

Don't forget to check the Organ Clearing House for used pipe organs that might provide a much lower cost solution for an all-pipe instrument. I know of a Methodist church in Sacramento CA who put together a pipe instrument using a used console and pipework for a fraction (and a small fraction at that) of the cost of a new pipe organ--comparable to what an all digital instrument would have cost.

[Leisesturm]

I live in what could fairly be called "Rodgers country". Until recently I lived exactly one mile from the Rodgers plant in West Hillsboro, OR. They've recently moved. So have I. I might live even closer to their new digs but I haven't seen them. I'm too busy playing the Trillium Masterpiece 908 at my new church appointment. I don't know about the Infinity, but the Trillium is built from go to interface with pipes, whether there are pipes present at the installation site or not. A large Episcopal Church near here around 30 years ago was approached by Rodgers to augment their 14 rank tracker instrument. The church got the instrument for a great price and in return Rodgers got another showcase instrument to use for live demonstrations in sanctuary acoustics. Three manual drawknob console by Rodgers, Trillium Masterpiece innards, interfaced with the legacy pipe ranks. I've played that instrument roughly once a month (practice only) for the last 10 years, and I never ever heard a mismatch between the pipe ranks and the digital ones. In the end though it was the pipes that gave out, and the last time I played it, only the digital voices were working. In 2018 few churches have the political will to resurrect a dead pipe organ. Luckily the Trillium core instrument is more than up to carrying on all on its own. A 21st Century Methodist Church needs more than an 18 rank instrument to save souls. I don't care how historic the thing is. It won't cut the mustard. Will some of you feel better when the church is closed and sold off with the organ intact? Using 18 ranks of pipes blended with digital ranks of the same type and the rest of the tonal scheme fleshed out with all digital voices sounds like an excellent plan to me. Even better if MIDI is added while the project is underway. Then you have an instrument that can see things on for a couple more decades or so.

[myorgan]

I have serviced many of the pipe organs in West Tn. Where is this organ located? There is a nice Pilcher organ in Paris(about 25 miles east of me) that was repaired years ago by someone in Ky. It would be a shame to alter this beautiful organ.

Michael²,

I suspect it is one in the same.

Michael¹

[jbird604]

I'll toss out a contrarian opinion. Hmmm.... "18" ranks spread over four divisions.... That averages to 4.5 actual stops per division, though there is undoubtedly a lot of unification and borrowing so more knobs than that. But in reality, a very puny little organ for a 700 seat church. And a Methodist Church at that, where, hopefully, the robust singing of hymns is still a part of the worship tradition. And what kind of organ literature is written with that size organ in mind? So "woefully inadequate" is a woefully inadequate understatement.

Not to start up the old pipes vs digital argument, but what is the true value of "saving" a set of pipes like that? It has lost is "historic" value, if it ever had any, by alterations, which no doubt testify to the ongoing feeling of its inadequate nature. And the sound is described as mediocre. If it were inspiring and glorious and majestic and grand, then I'd say preserve it. But why throw what will surely be a BUNCH of money into something that has probably never been adequate or even very pleasant to listen to?

Let's guess that the church might have to spend $150K to $200K on restorations to get a few years or a couple decades use from the pipes before they face the same issues again. That may even be a low estimate. Twenty-five years ago my little church was looking at $100K to patch up a puny 12 rank organ (and that was a LOT of money back then, especially considering the congregation's size).

That amount of money, properly spent, could get them one of the most magnificent digital organs imaginable. They need to very selective about who they let install one. Sadly, there are dealers and builders who don't care much about making the sound beautiful and making sure the organ is fully fitted to the church, and such folks will take your money and leave you with a disappointing instrument. But careful shopping can find them a company who can put in a digital that will give make glorious music for a generation or two. Forty or fifty years is not an unreasonable life expectancy for a premium digital organ.

(Yes, we have sad examples, such as the recent removal of the massive M&O from Trinity after only 10 years or so, but in my area there are dozens and dozens of fine-sounding electronics that have been making beautiful music for decades, with regular care and attention to the details of voicing and speaker placement, etc.)

So my vote (and I don't get one of course) would be to de-commission the pipes with a nice ceremony, expressing appreciation for the folks who sacrificed so long ago so the church could have an organ. Then leave the facade unchanged (if there is one), or create a beautiful tribute to the organ in the church somewhere by displaying some of the ranks in a creative arrangement. That, to me, pays better tribute to the old organ and its history than simply preserving it for sentimental reasons.

Ok. contrary opinion ended.

[rjsilva]

Let's guess that the church might have to spend $150K to $200K on restorations to get a few years or a couple decades use from the pipes before they face the same issues again...

That amount of money, properly spent, could get them one of the most magnificent digital organs imaginable...

Ok. contrary opinion ended.

I’ve appreciated reading everyone’s thoughts on this but I also like your contrary opinion :) Not sure what this church’s budget is, but for $150K they could likely get a well-spec’d Walker. I’d much prefer that over a mediocre pipe organ or a Rodgers/pipe hybrid.

[toodles]

My sister and her family are members of a "downtown" Presbyterian Church in NE Iowa. They have a vintage 1923 E. M. Skinner of 26 ranks, two of which are in an echo division; of the ranks, a 3-rank Plein Jeu and an 8 ft Trompette were added to the Swell around 1958. There is no unification, and only a little borrowing to the Pedal as was very common at the time it was built.

While I have never played this instrument, I've heard it many times from the congregation and it has a beautiful sound. This organ has changed my perspective on the possibilities of what early 20th Century American organs can achieve.