Valuation of Pipe Organ by "Stops" and by "Ranks"

[Guest]

I am a Certified Equipment Appraiser. My current assignment is value the following spec. Pipe organ.

My question is what dollar($) value should be allocated ($) to the value "Rank", The other question is the value per "Stop"

Rule of "Thumb" estimates


4 Manuals, 5 Divisions, 64 Stops, 71 Ranks, Manual Compass 61 notes, Pedal Compass 32 Notes. There are 4,400 Pipes 

Thank you for any help on topic ,

William Johnson

BillJohnson

[davidecasteel]

When my church was shopping for an organ for our new facility, the general pricing for American builders was about $25,000 per Stop and the premium builders were getting $35,000 per Stop. That was the 2001 time frame. I suspect things have gone up since then.

We bought an instrument from Orgelbau Johannes Klais Bonn in Germany (installed 2005) and paid $1,800.000 for it (as of the planned upgrade in 2010). The finished organ has 4 manuals, 70 Stops, 83 Ranks, and 4446 pipes. We thought it was a bargain and are very pleased with it.

David

[AllenAnalog]

Appraising a piece of equipment with a spec and appraising a musical instrument are two different skills with very different training IMHO. No offense but are you sure you are qualified to do this job? The builder of the instrument, the quality of the pipes and components, the mechanisms, the facade, the age, the condition, the quality of the installation and the voicing are all critical and highly variable aspects of valuing a pipe organ and they all count just as much as the raw numbers.

Company A, with a mediocre reputation for quality can build a 30 stop, 38 rank, 3 manual direct-electric action instrument with a no-frills stop tab console, two divisions under expression and no facade for X dollars while Company B, with a stellar reputation for quality, can build the same 30 stop, 38 rank organ with tracker action, stunning pipe work and facade, a draw knob console with unlimited combination action, and one division under expression for 2X or 3X dollars. There's a lot more to an organ than rank, stop and pipe count.

[toodles]

I concur with Larry (AnalogAllen).

An organ is not considered "equipment" in any of the senses that are considered for appraisal purposes, witness the fact that organs are not insured separately but are considered as improvements to the building where they are installed.

The determination of value begs the question, "what type of value?". The cost of a new instrument to replace the existing instrument is far different from the value if the instrument is sold as a used instrument. And any relocation of an existing organ involved high value costs to implement the relocation.

It is far easier to value an electronic organ than a pipe organ, though even then the local market of the electronic organ can change the value considerably.

[samibe]

I'm sure we could probably make an exhaustive list of parameters that would need to be considered to determine the value of a pipe organ.
Here's a start:

Console:
- number of manuals or divisions
- Number of stops
- Type of stops actions (drawknobs, tabs, rocker tabs, buttons, etc. - electromechanical, mechanical, pneumatic, etc.)
- Does it meet AGO or similar spec?
- Builder
- Capture Action (type, number of presets, memories, etc.)?
- Midi (full sequencer support, partial note and stop information, or none)
- Age
- Finish
- Style
- Manual and pedal action - direct, tracker, tracker-touch, electric, magnetic, etc.
- Swell and Crescendo Shoes - type, number, and condition
Pipework
- Blowers - Type and condition
- Windchests - type and condition
- Valve/action - type and condition
- Pipes/ranks - maker, pitch, scale, condition, number, type, pressure, etc.
- Date last serviced
Casework
- Facade
- Swell box(es)
- Swell shade - type and condition
Other/Misc
- Accessibility - how easy to access for repairs, service, or dismantling (in the case of sale)?
- Replaceability - What would an equivalent new organ cost?
- Historicality - Any reason the organ is priceless?
- Known issues that would need to be repaired
- Buyer availability

One highly variable aspect in the pipework price is the size of the pipes. 16' and 32' pipes are incredibly expensive because they take so much material and support. Also, they significantly limit potential buyers because not every potential venue can house 16' or 32' pipework. Additionally, many pipe organs are built using ranks from several builders (either using some existing pipework or adding pipework during an addition). Maybe the existing pipes were modified and voiced slightly by the rebuilder, maybe they were left alone, or maybe they were modified so much that they reflect the rebuilder's taste. Whether any of that is good or bad depends on who made the originals and who adjusted the originals later.

I'm sure there's more. This is what I could think of with my limited knowledge and experience.

[voet]

I have insured a number of my personal instruments with a rider on my home owners policy. There are several criteria that are used to determine the value. it really comes down to what are you willing to pay for the coverage you are seeking. For example do you want to insure for depreciated value or replacement value? In my experience with my insurance company, they are willing to insure for whatever I am willing to pay for. So an instrument that I paid $10,000 for in 2000, and I want to insure it for its depreciated value, they might give me $5,000 in 2018. On the other hand that instrument's replacement value in 2018 might be $25,000. If I am willing to pay for the additional coverage, that is what they would pay out on a claim. In my personal experience, it has been my responsibility to up the coverage every year or two if I want replacement value.

[davidecasteel]

Admittedly, a simple rule of thumb for price/Stop is not sufficient to make a choice among instruments, but it can at least point an Organ Committee in the direction of finding a builder that is within their budget, and to set some broad limits on how large an instrument could be funded.

Although it was not a deciding factor when we chose the building for our new organ in 2001, we were pleased to note that the approximate cost/Stop was about $25,000--right among the 2nd tier of builders we were considering. Since that builder was highly regarded in Germany (built both organs in the Köln Cathedral and those in the Trier and Aachen Cathedrals), we were favorably disposed to give them strong consideration. We have not regretted our decision.

David

[voet]

If the builder is still active, perhaps you could ask for an estimate of current value.

[VaPipeorgantuner]

I am a Certified Equipment Appraiser. My current assignment is value the following spec. Pipe organ.

My question is what dollar($) value should be allocated ($) to the value "Rank", The other question is the value per "Stop"

Rule of "Thumb" estimates


4 Manuals, 5 Divisions, 64 Stops, 71 Ranks, Manual Compass 61 notes, Pedal Compass 32 Notes. There are 4,400 Pipes 

Thank you for any help on topic ,

William Johnson

BillJohnson

As you have probably already read, pricing a pipe organ (giving a value of an existing instrument) is not going to be accurate using a "per stop" or "per rank" system. If this is for insurance purposes, a value can be constructed by a knowledgeable organ builder. To accurately give a realistic figure (rather than a 'ballpark' figure) it takes a fair amount of research, even using generic supply house costs. Those costs do not take into account the location of the organ or the difficulty in installing the organ, transporting it from the workshop to the venue where it will live. Accurate measurements of the multiple internal components (wind chests, reservoirs, structural elements, case work (particularly if it is decorative in nature rather than strictly functional).

It might be possible to go to the company that originally built the instrument, give them the opus (serial) number, and ask them to quote on the current cost to build the organ. Often it is the case that the original builder has gone out of business, then you have to find an equivalent operation (for example, was the original builder a 'factory' builder or did they specialize in one-of-a-kind instruments) to get a quotation. Be prepared to pay for this work (and trust me...it IS work. I have done a number of valuations for my clients). The thing is...six months from now, that number may or may not be valid, so if this an insurance valuation, then your client needs to put an escalation clause in the insurance rider to allow for annual inflation (somewhere on the order of 5% to cover labor and materials).

Is your head spinning yet?? (lol)

There are some organ builders on this bulletin board that could assist you on this (shameless self-plug).

Rick in VA