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Which organ stop or stop combination best emulate the sounds of:

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  • Which organ stop or stop combination best emulate the sounds of:

    -Scottish Highland bagpipes?

    -the harmonium or as the reed organ is known in Britain and Europe

    The bass drone on the bagpipes are tuned the second A below middle C and the two tenors are both an octave above that in unison.

    The A on bagpipes sounds more akin to B-flat in concert pitch.

    I don't know if any organ stop or combination can speak two different pipes of the same pitch and tone color at the same time.

    The chanter's lowest A is an octave above the tenor drones.

    I would think any powerful penetrating reed stop would emulate bagpipes fairly well.

  • #2
    On a III/33 Moller I play once a year, I used a combination of the English Horn coupled with the Vox Humana stops. For the "drone" sound I used the Voix Celeste in the Swell. At least on that organ it sounded pretty good.

    Comment


    • #3
      Musings on a Musette 8'

      Originally posted by jonmyrlebailey View Post
      I would think any powerful penetrating reed stop would emulate bagpipes fairly well.
      I'm inclined to agree. See there, you answered your own question. Were but that all were as easy as this. But as long as I am here ... if the organ is not trying to accompany real Highland Bagpipes then minutiae of tuning, etc. become somewhat academic don't they? You can make your drones any key you want. Chances are good you will want (need?) the same stop for the drone notes as the melody (chanter). I mean your doing well to find one reed on most organs that might work, two? But maybe non-reed stops (celeste??) could work ... try everything, why not. You might discover (likely) that a slavish recreation of real bagpipes isn't what is wanted and exploring the greater possibilites of even a modest organ ... ... No organ pipe can speak two different timbres at the same time. A combination of two stops will be a composite tone of the respective ranks involved. It was once popular to have a stop called a 'Musette' on organs of the 19th Century. I know of at least one 20th Century instrument that has a 'Bagpipe' stop. Not this one though.

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      • #4
        I have used the oboe plus the celeste strings to simulate bagpipes
        John
        ----------
        *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by jonmyrlebailey View Post
          I don't know if any organ stop or combination can speak two different pipes of the same pitch and tone color at the same time.
          I'm a bit confused by your description. A Flute Dolce II speaks two different pipes of the same pitch and tone color at the same time, as does any stop that selects more than one rank (i.e. Mixtures).

          The question I wonder about is a pipe that has two different tone colors produced by the same pipe. I know the Doppelflöte has two mouths, and both speak, but I've often wondered if one of the mouths were altered in shape or tonality, if the pipe would be able to produce two different tone qualities at the same time.

          I'm not sure if that's what you meant, though. It's the wording of your statement that confused me a bit. It's happening a bit more now, in my advancing years!:embarrassed:

          Originally posted by jbird604 View Post
          I have used the oboe plus the celeste strings to simulate bagpipes
          John,

          Arguably, the celeste is not the same pitch as the oboe. While relatively the same pitch, they are actually two different frequencies.

          Michael
          Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
          • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
          • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
          • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

          Comment


          • #6
            In the Great Scottish Highland bagpipes, there are two separate drone pipes that produce the exact same tone and pitch, the two tenor A's (actually closer to B-flat).

            The third drone, the bass, produces a pitch an octave lower than the two tenors when tuned proper. Yes, a bagpipes has two separate tenor drone pipes of the same.

            I don't know the acoustical reason for having these duplicate drone tenor pipes sounding in unison: something to do with richness maybe.

            Can the organ replicate this sound? Are there two separate pipes on an organ that can produce the same pitch and tone at the same time

            in the manner of the bagpipes' tenor drones? To understand what I mean, you probably have to check this video out to how how bagpipes are tuned.

            Most organists probably don't have much knowledge of these Scottish pipes, musically speaking. Some might even be averse to bagpipe music.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7aQjZKpCtY&t=27s

            On Scottish pipes, the lower-pitched drones are sustained during play akin to an organ's pedal point and retain a constant pitch.

            The treble chanter pipe with finger holes plays the melody. I would think an organ's pedal point would play the drones part.
            Last edited by jonmyrlebailey; 11-30-2018, 11:26 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by jonmyrlebailey View Post
              In the Great Scottish Highland bagpipes, there are two separate drone pipes that produce the exact same tone and pitch, the two tenor A's (actually closer to B-flat).

              The third drone, the bass, produces a pitch an octave lower than the two tenors when tuned proper. Yes, a bagpipes has two separate tenor drone pipes of the same.

              I don't know the acoustical reason for having these duplicate drone tenor pipes sounding in unison: something to do with richness maybe.

              Can the organ replicate this sound? Are there two separate pipes on an organ that can produce the same pitch and tone at the same time

              in the manner of the bagpipes' tenor drones? To understand what I mean, you probably have to check this video out to how how bagpipes are tuned.

              Most organists probably don't have much knowledge of these Scottish pipes, musically speaking. Some might even be averse to bagpipe music.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7aQjZKpCtY&t=27s

              On Scottish pipes, the lower-pitched drones are sustained during play akin to an organ's pedal point and retain a constant pitch.

              The treble chanter pipe with finger holes plays the melody. I would think an organ's pedal point would play the drones part.
              I actually knew a fair amount about bagpipes (Uilleann Pipes) but I gave myself a crash course for the purpose of responding to your earlier post. At the risk of being obvious ... a pipe organ is not a set of bagpipes. It can do much more, and maybe much less at the same time, than the real thing. In the section on drones of the linked article it says that the twin tenor drones are for volume reasons. Not all Highland pipes have twin tenor drones (all the ones I've ever seen do though). No organ I know of would waste the space needed for a rank of pipes to create two identical ranks so that one could create the effect of two pipes of the same pitch and timbre. First off all, two pipes aren't much louder than one! That's why you have 25 first violins in a symphony. The amount of volume increase is negligible from just a doubling or trebling. Easier to just make the one rank as loud as you want! If two ranks are going to have the exact same construction (ie. the same pitch and timbre) bet your bottom dollar one of the ranks will be tuned sharp (celeste) that isn't the sound needed from the drones. I'm pretty sure that if Highland pipes could have drones as big as the pipes that play that pitch on a pipe organ that two would not be needed. I think you are good there. I linked a video showing one way to get a drone effect on a large pipe organ. It sounds to me like the organist is playing fourths (fifths?) in the left hand above the pedal point. To help you any further would require more information about exactly what you want to accomplish.

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              • #8
                I want to theoretically play a bagpipes composition on an organ and have it sound as close as possible to the Scottish Highland instrument and nothing more. Typically Scottish pipes play a variety of marches and Amazing Grace even. A church organist probably doesn't replicate the exact notes and timbres of bagpipes when playing Amazing Grace during Sunday morning services, however. What I understand is that an organ is well-known for replicating many different orchestral instruments and many Renaissance ones as well say the crumhorn, for instance.

                What piece of Western (Europe/Britain/North America/Australia/New Zealand/South Africa) music cannot be played on organ?

                Pipe organs have a huge number of registrations so it would seem that even replicating a polka piece for accordion might even be doable.

                Some dictionaries even list harmonium (the old-fashioned pump reed organ) as an organ stop in one sense of the word.

                I was even at one memorial service in the army where a Highlands bagpiper was accompanying a pipe organ in the chapel to play a dirge.


                How would one even correctly arrange a Highlander bagpipes piece for organ accurately?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yes, there are organs that have 2 ranks of the same (or very similar) pipes. Like two 8' trumpets. But that is a minority of organs and it was done for a ather specific purpose: correcting for acousitcs of the room.

                  I would say that any piece for percussion would be rather unplayable. Check out some stuff by Safri Duo.

                  Why not, there were even Polkas and Waltzes written for organ.

                  That will be the Physharmonika stop. There is also the Orpheal stop but there are only 2 or 3 of them in the world. On the other hand, that is one rank of an harmonium and it is far removed from what a real harmonium could do.

                  Yes, there is music for organ and bagpipe. I should have a DAT tape of a concert of such music somewhere. But for some reason I never listened to it after the concert, guess why?

                  I have no idea why anyone would want an organ soundlike a bagpipe. Please consult your doctor :D

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I like Scottish Highland music but the bagpipes look so damn physically demanding with all that blowing, squeezing and fancy fingering of the chanter holes.

                    I have asthma and that precludes mouth-blown instruments for me anyway.

                    I can emulate the bagpipes version of Amazing Grace on my Casio keyboard set on the "Harmonium 1" tone quite well. Doesn't sound exactly like the real deal.

                    You won't hear any chiff sound in this setting.

                    The Harmonium setting sounds reedy and potent. I play it in the key of B-flat since the Scottish pipes sound roughly at that pitch though the keynote, tonic, is called A
                    on bagpipes.

                    The Church Organ tone settings roughly sound like a pipe organ's principal or diapason. There is no pedal on this cheesy $150 instrument, however.

                    My Casio has various organ or orchestral instrument tones as well as piano and harpsichord.

                    Rock organ, electric organ, reed organ, harmonica, accordion, jazz organ and chapel organ which has a soft flute-like tone.

                    The Casio has oboe, basson, sax, flute and piccolo tones that all yield a vibrato or wavering tone if the keys are held long
                    something like a celeste.

                    An authentic set of bagpipes or a good Hammond B-series with Leslie speaker is well out of my budget.
                    Last edited by jonmyrlebailey; 12-01-2018, 04:08 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Not sure you can do much better than with your Harmonium sound on that keyboard. To many people that will sound quite convincing, since most people are not terribly knowledgeable about the details of bagpipe tone.

                      Case in point: I once played a home-brew arrangement of "Amazing Grace" in church that I based loosely on one I'd heard on a CD by a famous organist. The piece began with a verse of the song played on simulated bagpipes using only organ stops of course.

                      On the organ I was playing at the time, I drew the Swell Viola and Viola Celeste along with the Oboe and coupled it to the Great where I drew the Krummhorn. I held down the two lowest "G" keys with my left hand and played the melody in "bagpipe style" (absolute legato, and sort of rolling the notes between low and high pitches instead of making long interval jumps, as you hear bagpipe players do as they lift their fingers in sequence). I played the melody in the octave above middle C.

                      Nobody in that church was Scottish or played the bagpipes, just ordinary folks who had heard bagpipes do something like that on TV for a funeral or something. I don't know how many came up to me afterwards and remarked about the "bagpipes" and how they wanted me to play that at their funeral!

                      So I think the key to successfully "imitating" bagpipes on an organ would be using a rich, nasal, reedy tone with some pitch variability (provided by the celeste rank playing along with the unison ranks). People usually hear bagpipes play in groups rather than solo, so they probably expect to hear that pitch uncertainty that will naturally occur when multiple instruments are attempting to play the same pitch, like a huge grand celeste. Even when a single piper plays, the two tenor drones are going to be ever so slightly different in pitch and will produce that characteristic wobble.

                      Anyway, that worked for me in that situation. I was quite surprised at how many people seemed to truly enjoy it.
                      John
                      ----------
                      *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!

                      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jonmyrlebailey View Post
                        I like Scottish Highland music but the bagpipes look so damn physically demanding with all that blowing, squeezing and fancy fingering of the chanter holes.
                        Ah, therein lies the rub. Not that it couldn't be done (or hasn't), the following reasons preclude what you're seeking:
                        • A bagpipe is not necessarily tuned to equal temperament, not that just those pipes couldn't be tuned differently, but it probably wouldn't mesh well with other stops.
                        • A chanter uses grace notes to substitute for tonguing when a note is repeated. Because of no articulation on a bagpipe, there is no way to create it on a pipe organ because notes begin with articulation when the wind starts on a pipe organ. On the bagpipe chanter, wind is supplied gradually to begin, and removed (sometimes suddenly) when ending.
                        • A chanter is not a diatonic instrument with only 1 or 2 sharps/flats available on most models (if any). Of course, there again grace notes are used, but the effect is not the same.

                        From the sound of your post, it almost sounds like you are looking for a theatre organ rather than church organ? A few months ago, I visited the Phoenix Pizza Palace (or some name like that), and I seem to recall the organist imitating a bagpipe that would be convincing to most listeners.

                        If you want me to move this thread to the theatre organ thread, please let me know. You might get more discussion there.

                        Michael
                        Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                        • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                        • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                        • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Leisesturm:

                          No organ I know of would waste the space needed for a rank of pipes to create two identical ranks so that one could create the effect of two pipes of the same pitch and timbre. First off all, two pipes aren't much louder than one! That's why you have 25 first violins in a symphony. The amount of volume increase is negligible from just a doubling or trebling. Easier to just make the one rank as loud as you want!
                          This is from the Sonus Paradisi description of the Marcussen organ of the Laurenskerk main organ in Rotterdam

                          "One striking feature of the instrument is its multi-rank Principal stops. Practically all the Principals and Octaves 16', 8', 4' of all the divisions are made of more than one unison souding ranks."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jonmyrlebailey View Post
                            My Casio has various organ or orchestral instrument tones as well as piano and harpsichord.

                            Rock organ, electric organ, reed organ, harmonica, accordion, jazz organ and chapel organ which has a soft flute-like tone.

                            The Casio has oboe, basson, sax, flute and piccolo tones that all yield a vibrato or wavering tone if the keys are held long
                            something like a celeste.

                            An authentic set of bagpipes or a good Hammond B-series with Leslie speaker is well out of my budget.
                            If your Casio uses the general midi soundfont for the basis of all of the instruments (like most keyboards) then you probably have a bagpipe instrument already. Try instrument 109.
                            Sam
                            Home: Allen ADC-4500 Church: Allen MDS-5
                            Files: Allen Tone Card (TC) Database, TC Info, TC Converter, TC Mixer, ADC TC SF2, and MOS TC SF2, ADC TC Cad/Rvt, MOS TC Cad/Rvt, Organ Database, Music Library, etc. PM for unlinked files.

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                            • #15
                              We're getting a bit off thread, but if the biggest issue is that you cannot play wind instruments due to your health, then why not play a "digital" wind instrument? I just remembered that at a folk festival there was a guy that sold electronic Bombardes. A Bombarde is a VERY LOUD french (brittany) wind instrument that is so hard to blow that it never plays long passages. So I just googled for it and found these (in french): https://www.sonerien.com/cornemuses-...h-bagpipe.html. So a highland bagpipe does exist in digital form.

                              To get a bit back on topic: that region of france, they do play Bombarde and Organ together. It does sound great.

                              EDIT: I never heard the instrument in the link, have nothing to do with those people and I know not enough about bagpipes to judge how it sounds.

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