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  • Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



    Hello everyone,




    Can anyone help me identify missing stops on my pipe organ? It is a 1960 Frazee organ, and several stop tabs are taped over (I can't read through them). The pictures are located in my gallery at:




    http://organforum.com/photos/myorgan...ture41692.aspx




    Thanks in advance for your help.




    Michael

    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

  • #2
    Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)

    hmmm.... I looks like Diapason? 8, Voix Celeste 8, Aeoline 8, the last one is most likely a 2' Piccolo, but I can't make it out

    can you peel the tape off?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



      I agree that the Swell stops are Diapason 8', Voix Celeste 8', and Aeoline 8', and that the other is not readable, but it's a 4' of some kind, and probably a flute. I think the first taped over Pedal stop is a Stopped Diapason 16'; I can't make out the other, but it's an 8' stop.




      Obviously, that tape has been in place a very long time and has bonded to the stop tablets. I think I'd try soaking the tape with lighter fluid for a while and then try to scrape it off very carefully with a really flat scraper. Lighter fluid will not attack most plastics, but it works wonders on most tape adhesives. I can't vouch that it won't remove the paint in the lettering, but that can always be replaced after the tape is gone. Lighter fluid does leave an oily residue, so when the stop tablets are clear, clean them off with soap and water. The process of cleaning off the tape will be a lot easier if the tablets can be removed.




      David

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



        [quote user="davidecasteel"]I agree that the Swell stops are Diapason 8', Voix Celeste 8', and Aeoline 8', and that the other is not readable, but it's a 4' of some kind, and probably a flute. I think the first taped over Pedal stop is a Stopped Diapason 16'; I can't make out the other, but it's an 8' stop.[/quote]




        I'll agree with David on all of that, with one other observation - most builders will put stops in a specific order: usually it is Diapasons, Flutes, Strings, Reeds (or maybe Diapasons, Strings, Flutes, Reeds). Within each family builders are supposed to then group stops in order of loudness. So if there are two 4' Flutes I'd guess that the one following the Harmonic Flute would be a tapered or capped Flute.




        I'm guessing that a small organ like this one would not have a second 16' flue stop, so instead of a 16' Stopped Diapason it might be a 16'Lieblich Gedeckt in the Pedal. In organs of that era it was not unusual to see aLieblich Gedeckt - it uses the same pipes as the 16' Bourdon but has a "Lieblich" action to provide less pressure (and thus less volume) to the stop. One easy way to prove it -look insidethe organ; there would either be two 16' ranks or one 16' rank sitting on a Lieblich action chest.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



          s32, that is very interesting and I have learned something.




          I am a little concerned with why the stop tablets have been taped over. At least one has had something else written on the tape. Were the pipes associated with the taped-over stops actually removed, or were they just not working well? Did the stop that had been written over have its pipes replaced with something else? If the pipes are still there and functional, it should be possible to get a good idea what they are just from playing them, no? There's a lot about this situation that I don't understand.




          David

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



            Well, which is a deep subject. You never can tell what will come up in the "organ world." I would have to hear the various stops in order to determine so most of the guys on here know so much more about this than me. If the organ was mine, I would determine what the stops are, and replace the knobs from some organ supply company with names of my own or use what you think was original. I have done that with old reed organs where the stops knob as well as labels were replaced. The names can vary so much, that is it oftne not possible to replace them with what was once there. However, they can be replace within the right stop family "name.




            Why would someone do such as this is beyond me. Anyone's guess is as good as mine.





            James

            Baldwin Church Organ Model 48C
            Baldwin Spinet 58R
            Lowrey Spinet SCL
            Wurlitzer 4100A
            Crown Pump Organ by Geo. P. Bent, Chicago, Illinois


            Organs I hope to obtain in the future:

            Conn Tube Minuet or Caprice even a transistor Caprice with the color coded tabs
            Gulbransen H3 or G3, or V.
            Wurlitzer 44, 4410, 4420, ES Reed Models, 4300, 4500, Transistor Models

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



              Unfortunately, I've see quite a few old organs that have fallen victim to tinkerers - especially during the height of the neo-baroque era. Ranks may have been replaced, or swapped within the organ, or rescaled/repitched.One legacyof such tinkerersis the beautiful stoptabs/drawknobsthey left behind (yellowing tape with chicken scratching for lettering). [8-)]




              Or it could just be that a certain rank was not playing, and the organist chose to tape over it.




              One can find clues to the original ranks, if you know where to look. Rackboards sometimes have stopnames on them, as do chests. If you can find the relay you might see stop names written down. Another place to look is by the crescendo shoe - sometimes the order of stops is written down.




              If you have pipes but don't have stop tabs you might also see the name of the stop engraved on bottom "C" (if not all the pipes). Don't be surprised if you find the names don't always match up between pipes, rackboards, console, and stops - even in an unspoiled installation.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



                Thank you to everyone for thoughts, comments, and constructive suggestions.




                As a teen, I had expressed interest in this organ (my brother was the pastor of the church). About 10-15 years later, I got a call from a new pastor, and they asked if I wanted the organ. I told them I couldn't afford it, but they offered it to me for free as long as I removed it. They had already plastered over the opening in the wall where the swell shades were located![*-)] I spent a summer during weekends removing the organ to my garage at my vacation home. My wife (then fiancée) also ruined a few sets of jeans helping me.




                So, I removed the organ through a hole in the 16' ceiling (with no stairs or ladder)! I originally wanted to install the organ in my vacation home I was going to re-build, but circumstances have not worked out. Presently, it sits in storage at my other home about 200 miles away--hence, the reason for not removing the tape. As near as I canremember, the following rankscomprise the instrument:

































                Stops




                16' Stopped Bourdon (wood)




                8' Open Diapason (metal-haskelled)




                8' Stopped Diapason (wood)




                8' Melodia (wood)




                8' Salicional (metal)




                8' Aeoline (metal)




                8' Dulciana (metal)




                4' Octave (metal)




                4' Harmonic Flute (wood-hole in side of pipes)




                8' Oboe




                8' Vox Humana




                Chimes




                So far, the organ has turned out to be a "white elephant," but I'm hoping to change that sometime in the next decade. As far as why someone would do that (tape over the stops), I think perhaps the stops ceased working, so they just taped over them so the organist would know what was not working. Not sure if the console came separate from the organ (French provinçial, blonde oak design), and that's the reason for the differences in stops, but . . . .




                Eventually, I'd like to expand on the instrument (since it seems to be piecemeal so far) and make it something more substantial. The pipe scales are just about right for a small church or home, but who knows?!!!




                Thanks again for all the input. I really value your suggestions and input.




                Michael

                Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



                  Those are really very nice stops to have in a home installation. It only lacks for some upperwork and perhaps a Trumpet (if your house can take that much volume). It might be nice to somedayextend the Oboe down to 16' in the Pedal too. [:)] Thereassembly seems to be pretty far into the future, and - like you -I'm alreadyimagining additions! [:D]




                  You didn't mention the Twelfth and Fifteenth -do you recall ifthose are extended ranks?




                  Did you take the entire organ, chests included? And if so how did you getall the heavy stuffdown without a ladder?! [:O]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



                    [quote user="soubasse32"] You didn't mention the Twelfth and Fifteenth -do you recall ifthose are extended ranks?[/quote]




                    You're right, there is a Nazard, but I don't recall if it was pulled from another rank or if it was a stand-alone.




                    [quote user="soubasse32"] Did you take the entire organ, chests included? And how did you get it down without a ladder?! [:O][/quote]




                    Chests were included--I even took the duct work and the carpet under it!




                    How did I get it down? There's a lot to be said for gravity!!! [;)] And for a couple of hefty guys on the other end of a block & tackle. Even then, they met the chest on the way up as it came down! [:O]




                    Oh, well. Will just get it installed in the house when they move me to a nursing home. [;)] Will make someone a nice instrument




                    Michael

                    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
                    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
                    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
                    • 11 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 7 Pianos

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



                      I also did not see a rank for the Voix Celeste 8', which would have to be a separate rank; the organ would seem to include it since one of the old taped-over stop tablets referred to it and another of the taped-over ones has been written over with it. The provision of a single 16' rank would also appear to support s32's supposition that the other taped-over 16' stop might have been a Lieblich Gedeckt. The taped-over 4' stop has a 2-word name, so it's not a second appearance of the Octave 4'; what existing 8' stop could be extended to a 4' with a 2-word name?




                      David

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



                        [quote user="davidecasteel"]I also did not see a rank for the Voix Celeste 8', which would have to be a separate rank; the organ would seem to include it since one of the old taped-over stop tablets referred to it and another of the taped-over ones has been written over with it.[/quote]




                        Excellent deduction, Dr. Watson. [:)]




                        [quote user="davidecasteel"]The taped-over 4' stop has a 2-word name, so it's not a second appearance of the Octave 4'; what existing 8' stop could be extended to a 4' with a 2-word name?[/quote]




                        Another good question. In an organ with such a wealth of 8' stops, I might think there would be three independent 4' stops - it wouldn'thave cost much in comparison to those 8' stops.




                        If it was indeed an extended rank, the first word is likely "octave". The most likely candidates for extension are the Stopped Diapason or the Salicional. I think it might say "Octave Gedeckt" (though that is not a common term). It could say "Octave Salicional", but that would be less likely.




                        I just looked at the photo again... after staring at it for a few seconds I'm beginning to think it says "Stopped Diapason 4'"! If youquickly alternatelookingat the Stopped Diapason 8' and the taped-over stop, it starts to seem plausible. I enlarged the photo somewhat, which helps.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Help With Missing Stops (Frazee)



                          I did think about "Stopped Diapason 4' " as a possibility, but I don't know enough about specific instruments to consider it likely. (In fact, I consider the name "Stopped Diapason" to be misleading, anyway--to me diapasons are open flues. I know a lot of English instruments have such stops, and I can understand how they could be built, but I don't see how they could possibly sound much like a diapason because that sound is characterized bya prominent 2nd harmonic, which won't be there in a stopped pipe. Other types of diapasons (open pipes) all have that strong 2nd harmonic, but "String Diapason" and "Geigen Diapason" also include more pronounced higher harmonics, too.




                          David

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