Quality of sound-digital church organ verses pipe church organ.

[daryljeffreyl]

Some people claim that most people can't tell the difference, in quality of sound, between a very good digital church organ and a pipe church organ. Do you agree? Also installing a pipe organ may not be practical for some churches-price and installation complexities.

[beel m]

Wow, has this subject been "kicked around" on this List for a long time! :-)
Personally, I've heard some digitals, well voiced and with LOTS of audio channels, where either 1. I couldn't tell it wasn't a pipe organ, or 2. The only way I *could* tell is that it was much more 'in tune' than a comparable pipe organ would likely be in that environment.
R, Bill

[Havoc]

Funny thing is that when it is a recording I have trouble telling them apart. But in real life it isn't hard.

While I can follow you on the price issue (*), I do not see what are those installation complexities. In most cases, if a previous organ was not present, it is not more than just putting the thing on the ground and plugging it in. Ok, a bit simplified but unless you want to fit a too large organ in a small space or have stability issues there is nothing complex about it.

(*) I have an idea that a digital with lots of audio channel and well voiced will not be significantly cheaper than an adequate pipe organ.

[daryljeffreyl]

In the church I attend there is no room for pipes, for a pipe organ installation, in the choir loft. The pipes would have to be suspended from the ceiling. That means reinforcing the ceiling and the roof, and building a structure to support the pipes. Iinstalling a digital church organ, no problem.

[james]

Yes indeed this info has been on going for some time. As I see it 90% of the church people could care less what kind of organ is in the church or if a praise band is used. Any given church will send money to some missionary before they tune a fine piano or organ. Many times if you play the organ you almost have to get down on your hands and knees and beg for them to get a technician to tune or repair a church instrument.

James

[jbird604]

I rambled on about something like this in another thread this morning, but I'll say here that I agree with most everything the others are saying. Some points:

(1) To the average church-goer it makes no difference, as much as we musicians would like to think so. Even if they can hear the difference, they probably are not concerned about it. As long as the instrument works (comes on and plays in some manner), most folks have little interest in the details. A lot of people DO care how loud it is, and if it is too loud they are not happy!

(2) But even for us, the elites who CAN tell the difference and DO care, digital organs have come a long way, baby! Today's advanced technology can easily produce a tone that is indistinguishable from the sound of a pipe, because it is literally a highly-accurate RECORDING of that pipe. Reproducing a SINGLE PIPE is thus an easy task. But rendering that sample in such a way that a system can output the sound of a number of simultaneously sounded pipes is the hard part.

(3) Thus, the major differences among digital organs spring from factors such as how many separate samples are employed, how many DAC's are used in the system, how many audio channels, how much amplifier power, the quality and placement of the speakers, how carefully it is voiced and finished, and perhaps one of the most important factors, what kind of room the instrument is installed into.

(4) Not many, but SOME digitals are done so well, situated in such fine acoustics, that they MIGHT actually "fool" a lot of people, including some of us with golden ears right here on this forum. I told a story about being fooled once upon a time by a HAMMOND organ in a super lively setting, so I am quite sure that I could be fooled these days by a really fine digital in a superb room. Even if I managed to hear "something" that tipped me off (such as the perfect tuning alluded to above), I would probably still judge it to be a magnificent organ, regardless of the method by which the tone is created.

(5) Normally it costs a great deal less to install a digital, even a very good one, than a good pipe organ, though there are stories of people finding used pipe organs and getting them moved at rather low cost. These are the exception, and for most people the digital will be far less expensive, by a factor of 10 to 1, if not more.

(6) Normally it also takes less space to install a digital organ. As long as there are some spacious chambers or other places where suitably hefty speakers can be placed, with projection out into the room allowed for, a digital can be accommodated. A pipe organ needs a blower, a chest, large air ducts, swell shades, and some other stuff that is quite bulky. And there needs to be easy access to the pipes from all sides so that tuning and repair can be done without difficulty. Shoehorning a pipe chest into a little room barely big enough to contain it is a recipe for disaster, as tuning may be next to impossible or may cause the tuner a great deal of grief (and owner a great deal of expense).

(7) It all comes down to a number of choices the purchaser must make -- how much money to spend, how much space to allot, how much maintenance they are willing to be responsible for, and whether or not the "pride" of owning some "real pipes" is an overriding factor.

After all this deciding is done, how much joy the church will get from it may depend to a large extent on how well the player knows how to get music out of it!

[daryljeffreyl]

I rambled on about something like this in another thread this morning, but I'll say here that I agree with most everything the others are saying. Some points:

(1) To the average church-goer it makes no difference, as much as we musicians would like to think so. Even if they can hear the difference, they probably are not concerned about it. As long as the instrument works (comes on and plays in some manner), most folks have little interest in the details. A lot of people DO care how loud it is, and if it is too loud they are not happy!

(2) But even for us, the elites who CAN tell the difference and DO care, digital organs have come a long way, baby! Today's advanced technology can easily produce a tone that is indistinguishable from the sound of a pipe, because it is literally a highly-accurate RECORDING of that pipe. Reproducing a SINGLE PIPE is thus an easy task. But rendering that sample in such a way that a system can output the sound of a number of simultaneously sounded pipes is the hard part.

(3) Thus, the major differences among digital organs spring from factors such as how many separate samples are employed, how many DAC's are used in the system, how many audio channels, how much amplifier power, the quality and placement of the speakers, how carefully it is voiced and finished, and perhaps one of the most important factors, what kind of room the instrument is installed into.

(4) Not many, but SOME digitals are done so well, situated in such fine acoustics, that they MIGHT actually "fool" a lot of people, including some of us with golden ears right here on this forum. I told a story about being fooled once upon a time by a HAMMOND organ in a super lively setting, so I am quite sure that I could be fooled these days by a really fine digital in a superb room. Even if I managed to hear "something" that tipped me off (such as the perfect tuning alluded to above), I would probably still judge it to be a magnificent organ, regardless of the method by which the tone is created.

(5) Normally it costs a great deal less to install a digital, even a very good one, than a good pipe organ, though there are stories of people finding used pipe organs and getting them moved at rather low cost. These are the exception, and for most people the digital will be far less expensive, by a factor of 10 to 1, if not more.

(6) Normally it also takes less space to install a digital organ. As long as there are some spacious chambers or other places where suitably hefty speakers can be placed, with projection out into the room allowed for, a digital can be accommodated. A pipe organ needs a blower, a chest, large air ducts, swell shades, and some other stuff that is quite bulky. And there needs to be easy access to the pipes from all sides so that tuning and repair can be done without difficulty. Shoehorning a pipe chest into a little room barely big enough to contain it is a recipe for disaster, as tuning may be next to impossible or may cause the tuner a great deal of grief (and owner a great deal of expense).

(7) It all comes down to a number of choices the purchaser must make -- how much money to spend, how much space to allot, how much maintenance they are willing to be responsible for, and whether or not the "pride" of owning some "real pipes" is an overriding factor.

After all this deciding is done, how much joy the church will get from it may depend to a large extent on how well the player knows how to get music out of it!

People do complain if the music is too loud.

[jbird604]

Yes they do! Even I can complain about an organ that is too loud. I attended a special service at another church in my area a few months ago where there is a very fine pipe organ built by a premium firm. But one of the first things I noticed about the organ was how LOUD it was. When the organist "let it rip" at the end of the service with a tutti registration on a big postlude, I had to get out of there quick, or else be seen holding my ears!

Really, an organ builder shouldn't let an organ get installed so that it will be so loud as to cause pain when played at tutti levels.

[daryljeffreyl]

Yes they do! Even I can complain about an organ that is too loud. I attended a special service at another church in my area a few months ago where there is a very fine pipe organ built by a premium firm. But one of the first things I noticed about the organ was how LOUD it was. When the organist "let it rip" at the end of the service with a tutti registration on a big postlude, I had to get out of there quick, or else be seen holding my ears!

Really, an organ builder shouldn't let an organ get installed so that it will be so loud as to cause pain when played at tutti levels.

The pipe organ, at Saint Gabriel parish, in Ida Michigan is on the loud side.

[regeron]

When someone tells me the organ is too loud, my immediate response and first question is "boomy loud or screechy loud?" It's a bit like saying a food has too much of a certain flavor - if you can't tell the cook which flavor is too strong, the cook doesn't know which flavor to modify.

"Tutti" is not necessarily a registration to use for a whole piece, but rather to reserve for the ending or another climactic moment.

Example: I have a recording made of the organ at Yorkminster cathedral, which has a very loud solo trumpet. On the whole recording, I think that trumpet is used for only 5 or 6 notes!

The problem of too loud (or too soft) is not specific to either pipe or non-pipe organ. This 'too loud' on either can include both the boomy loud and screechy loud.

To answer the initial question, which has (as has been mentioned) probably been answered a million times on here already, of course some people can tell the difference and others can't. And yes, a pipe organ is not practical for every church, for a variety of reasons. No one will ever dispute that,
******
I'm starting to question the poster's motivation for posting. There seems to be a kind of pessimism and I'm curious to know what kinds of experiences are leading to this line of questioning.

[Piperdane]

Some people claim that most people can't tell the difference, in quality of sound, between a very good digital church organ and a pipe church organ. Do you agree? Also installing a pipe organ may not be practical for some churches-price and installation complexities.

Many years ago I worked as an Allen technician for an Allen Organ dealer. Every year we would pit an Allen digital against a large pipe organ and perform a duo organ concert. For some people ears they could not tell the difference. For others it was very noticeable that as the afternoon wore on the interior of the building would get warmer causing the some of the pipework to go flat in pitch.

There are subtle differences that any experienced organist will be able to notice between a sound emanating from a speaker cone or one that is wind blown. There has yet to be, for my ears, any digital replacement for actual wind blown pipes.

And then ... there are a few analogs that do sound pretty darned good .. I play a large AOB for a church here.

[Peterboroughdiapason]

Example: I have a recording made of the organ at Yorkminster cathedral, which has a very loud solo trumpet. On the whole recording, I think that trumpet is used for only 5 or 6 notes!

The tuba mirabilis in York Minster is certainly ridiculously loud (though not, actually, on the East side of the organ) though it is a fun stop, if very irregular in speech. Great in Cocker's Tuba Tube. In fact, though, the whole organ has great difficulty in filling the building.

N.B. Although it is a cathedral as well as a minster, it's just called York Minster.

[andyg]

There are so many threads on this, some of which have just turned into slanging matches between the pipe vs electronics fraternities.

If there's something new to add to this thread, great. If not, there's little point to the thread, so I'll close it and members can 'enjoy' reading all the other threads!

[F Kalbrenner]

There are so many threads on this, some of which have just turned into slanging matches between the pipe vs electronics fraternities.

If there's something new to add to this thread, great. If not, there's little point to the thread, so I'll close it and members can 'enjoy' reading all the other threads!

Yes I agree. As much as I am an advocate for the pipe organ I do feel that there is something a little cynical about this thread.

[regeron]

N.B. Although it is a cathedral as well as a minster, it's just called York Minster.

Thank you for the correction. :-)