Winding problem with a Hinners

[jordan312]

In our town, there is a 1929 Hinners 3/16 organ that is in failing condition. Some (many) members of the church want to enjoy their organ again and have asked our local organ association for some guidance. The organ does not seem to be getting enough air. The motor has recently been rebuilt and the blower is making wind, but the reservoirs do not rise. There seems to be enough air to play a few notes, but not up to pitch. A large chord played across several ranks is both slow to speak and varies in pitch.
The blower does not appear to be from 1929. It is about 4' x 4' and maybe 12" deep built out of plywood, painted black. A large 3 phase motor set next to it connects with a large pulley and long belt.
It seems to me that the blower is not creating the proper amount of wind/pressure.
Any ideas of how to test/check/confirm?

[myorgan]

Jordan,

How many inches of wind is the organ supposed to have as a supply? Also, I am assuming you've checked for leaks, etc.

Michael

[jordan312]

No idea on the pressure. No significant leaks.

[Pipeorganbuilder]

Can you take a photo of the blower so we can see what you are dealing with. There are so many blower used till it is hard to guess what you have going on. The regulators must go up in order to supply air to the chests.

Michael

[jordan312]

Difficult, but I will try. A black plywood box in a black cupboard will not show much.

[AllenAnalog]

If you have already done the obvious check of all of the wind lines and reservoirs for air leaks, I suspect that the "long belt" may be your problem. I have a reproducing piano with a motor driving a vacuum pump with a belt. Last winter I heard some snapping noises when I ran the piano. I thought it was the motor arcing. But it turns out the belt was slipping on the motor pulley and creating static electricity.

When you start the motor, does the motor pulley spin without the belt moving very much or does the blower load down the motor so it takes time to spin up to speed? If it is the former, then your belt probably has a glaze on the surface, contributing to it slipping under load.

I would recommend a simple project to clean up the pulleys on the motor and blower and replace the belt. If that is not practical (is it leather or man-made?) then after you clean the pulleys spray aerosol belt dressing on the belt to increase the friction between the belt and the pulleys.

Also, is there a belt tensioning system to adjust the distance between the motor and the blower? You don't want it too tight but it must have enough tension to keep the belt moving at the same rate as the motor.

[jordan312]

I have not watched the system start. Will have to check on this.

[aeolian pat]

3 phase ? Did you check rotation. A reversed motor will still provide some wind but not enough to play the instrument.. Don't forget to look for inhaled plastic bags.
Regards, Pat.

[jordan312]

Don't have any idea which direction would be correct.

[samibe]

You can switch two of the (three) input wires (any two) and it will change the rotation of the motor. If that makes it better, great. If not, then switch the wires back.

[Pipeorganbuilder]

I remember having a very large Moller organ in Memphis, Tn. that lost its air supply and would only play a few pipes at a time. Turned out the janitor was storing his supplies in the blower room. A plastic bag got sucked up in the blower and stopped the organ. Glad you pointed this out as a possibility.

Michael

[Ben Madison]

I will add to this thread, check the bearings when you do belt check and maintenance. if you have them and they are reaching their end of their usefulness go ahead either grease them orreplace them, if you do not then you end up with lower efficiency, sluggish response and damage.

[VaPipeorgantuner]

In our town, there is a 1929 Hinners 3/16 organ that is in failing condition. Some (many) members of the church want to enjoy their organ again and have asked our local organ association for some guidance. The organ does not seem to be getting enough air. The motor has recently been rebuilt and the blower is making wind, but the reservoirs do not rise. There seems to be enough air to play a few notes, but not up to pitch. A large chord played across several ranks is both slow to speak and varies in pitch.
The blower does not appear to be from 1929. It is about 4' x 4' and maybe 12" deep built out of plywood, painted black. A large 3 phase motor set next to it connects with a large pulley and long belt.
It seems to me that the blower is not creating the proper amount of wind/pressure.
Any ideas of how to test/check/confirm?

first red flag is that the reservoirs are not rising. It is possible that the motor is not turning at the correct speed OR turning in the wrong direction. USUALLY organ blowers have the correct direction of rotation marked on one or both sides of the blower housing. Also, there should be a plate somewhere on the blower that gives the specifics of it's operation...that is the needed RPM for the blower to produce the needed wind pressure. Check the intake area to be sure that nothing has been sucked into the intake, which would restrict the flow of air and starve the organ's wind supply. Also, check the bearings (with the power turned OFF) to see that the fans are turning freely and that the drive belt is not slipping.

If there is a long distance between the blower and the organ chambers, it is possible that the main wind trunk has a leak, which you should be able to hear. Also, if there is a static regulator, it will be near (possibly on top of) the blower housing. It should not take a professional organ tuner to locate the fault. where are you located? It would be prudent to let the church authorities that the blower room should NEVER be used to store janitor supplies or anything that is not related to the operation of the organ.

If there is a large reservoir close to the blower, check to see that the corner gussetts and the external hinge leather is not leaking along the wooden folds. If the organ has not been releathered by a professional, it may be a case that there is so much deteriorated leather in the chest action that it won't play, but that has to be determined by a competent organ tuner/technician.

Rick in VA

[aeolian pat]

I am wondering if there is a curtain valve or a broken rope somewhere in the regulator.
Just speculating.
Pat

[Ben Madison]

their could be a dust problem.

[jordan312]

I was able to get some pictures. Actually I'm surprised they came out as well as they did. No chance of dust or shopping bags being an issue, as there is a large furnace filter at the air entrance. An no squeaks or slaps from the belt.
doesn't look like it is needing any lubricant

The rear bearing has a nice access tube to lube.

[aeolian pat]

As long as your in the blower you could see if the fans locked down on the shaft.
Pat

[VaPipeorgantuner]

a quite unusual blower...looks almost like a one-off rather than a commercially produced organ blower. It isn't very deep which leads me to think that there is only one impeller (fan). Will be interested to see how this problem is resolved...but It may involve bringing in a good local tech.
Rick in VA

[Pipeorganbuilder]

Since the motor has been rebuilt recently, my bet is that the motor is running in the wrong direction. As already mentioned above, just swap any two of the three motor leads and try.

Michael

[aeolian pat]

This seems to be going nowhere.
we need more facts.
Is this a tracker or tubular, ventil or EP. Hinners made a variety of actions..
Is the regulating reservoir rising to full height. Are any reservoirs rising.
Are there any MAJOR leaks. They would be audible.
If this is an EP organ which is possible from the late date, is the voltage from the rectifier correct.
Have you reversed rotation yet.
Answers would be nice.
Regards
Pat

[jordan312]

Sorry that the information isn't coming fast enough for you. This organ is not in my church, so I do not have immediate access whenever I would like. We did have a follow up visit with a church member who is a commercial electrician. The motor is good. It is not 3 phase as we were led to believe, but rather 240 volt single phase so it is not running in reverse. The rectifier (old but newer than the organ) is working well. The fan moves without interference and is securely mounted. The motor mounts needed to be tightened, but it did not cure any of the instrument's issues. There are not even minor leaks. A couple of men of the church opened some panels and went under the organ to inspect the duct work and found it all in good shape.
I have recommended that it is now time to bring an expert in from Kansas City who can determine the status or condition of the two reservoirs.
(A side note - the pneumatic chimes do not have enough wind to function- the pneumatic swell motor does not have enough wind to operate.)

[aeolian pat]

I know that an electrician was on site, so I'm just going to ask if he checked the wiring within the motor junction box. Many single phase motors can run clock wise or counter clock wise.The blower still may be the best candidate for low wind.
Regards,
Pat

[jordan312]

Yes, he checked.

[ChristopherDB113]

Please continue to post updates whenever you have them. This might be something easy for a tech to figure out in less than an hour.

[jordan312]

Good news everyone...A team of carpenters from the church caused the wind leak. As you can see in the pic there is a significant gap from the top of the blower box (which is directly below the organ floor.) The view to this area was obscured from view. The trunk line was disturbed by the crew that rebuilt the platform to better accommodate the worship band. (I am sure it was not intentional, but simply a mistake.)

[myorgan]

I am sure it was not intentional,....

Hmmm. Worship band+pipe organ suddenly not working well+hidden space. Seems suspicious to me!;-)

Seriously, I'm glad you found the problem, and I hope it's a quick (& inexpensive) fix so you can be back in business. If the crew that rebuilt the platform was contracted, they should have insurance that could cover the repair.

Thanks for keeping us posted.

Michael