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  • Bombarde Divisions

    Are they like a super solo or great or something else?

  • #2
    Re: Bombarde Divisions

    How about "super solo" with emphasis on powerful chorus reeds and harmonic flue stops?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Bombarde Divisions



      A Solo division to me,is primarily for soloistic stops whichcan sound beautiful when played as a melody. That's why you may only see 8' stops in a large Solo division. There are of course many other uses for Solo division stops, but they are secondary. Solo stops can be rather exotic or not particularly loud(French Horn, English Horn, Vox Humana, Orchestral Oboe). Where there is no Bombarde division, the louder Solo chorus reeds will fulfil the function of a Bombarde.




      Bombarde divisions have a very different purpose - they mainly provide the loudest reed/mixture tone. Although any Bombarde reed may be played in a soloistic manner, the main function is to provide power to full organ.




      Bombarde divisions originated in France (Notre-Dame, 1733). The Grand-orgue grew in size to the point that it became practical to divide stopsbetween two chests. At first, this might have just been a single large stop, such as a 16' Bombarde. In later Romantic organs, you might find an entire battery of loud reeds, mixtures, and cornets.




      Sometimes the Bombarde division has a higher wind pressure. Sometimes it has its own keyboard and sometimes it is "floating" (but only in modern, non-trackerorgans).A true French Bombarde division is rarely enclosed (since it is primarily for power); in the USA you may find some Bombarde divisions under expression, though thisdoesn't really fitthe original concept.




      In American organs from the20th centuryyou might find a reedless Great supplemented by a Bombarde division. One advantage of this is that you gain a bit of flexibility in having the Great reeds (the Bombarde division) playable from other keyboards.




      The ideal however, might be to have a Great with its own set of chorus reeds plus a Bombarde division with a louder set of reeds and mixtures. Thiswould beappropriate in a very large installation, where maximum power is needed.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Bombarde Divisions



        Soubasse:




        Have you ever given thought to writing a book on Pipe Organ history? You're vast knowledge of the instrument would certainly enlighten many others. I'd certainly buy it.




        Regards,
        Gary

        -Gary

        If it's not baroque, don't fix it.
        YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/thevande...?feature=guide
        Web Site (with sheet music): http://www.garyvanderploeg.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Bombarde Divisions

          I second that!

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Bombarde Divisions

            WOW!!! We've had a motion, its been seconded, and I call for a floor vote to authorise Maestro Soubasse32 to write the definitive treatise on the History of the Pipe Organ.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Bombarde Divisions

              [:$]

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Bombarde Divisions



                The late Dr A Schreiner of the Salt Lake Tabernacle described the Aeolian-Skinner Bombarde Division as being a ''super'' Great.Tho it was supposed to be of tin pipes for the principals it turned out that spotted metal was used. GDH was thrilled when he attended an audition of his materful creation and the Bombarde Chorus was used firstly with only one hand and finally both hands including Great on Solo [manual IV] plus the full divisions coupled up to manual IV.




                Schoestein Co said that the Diapason 8 in the Tabernacle Bombarde was little used. Bethards re-regulated the pipes and suddenly the big Diapason took on a new life and the organists were favorabaly impressed with it. The tabernacle bombarde section is both a flue and reed chorus. The flue chorus has an 8-4-VI of diapasons and the hooded reeds plus IV-VI cornet are the full but not bombastic reed tone. The whole division is on 7'' of wind. The reeds were revoiced in 1977 by the Trivo Co and sounded better to me than the original sound. Bethards reinstated the original tone as much as possible. The trivo sound was more exciting and incisive by reason of solder scoops in the shallots. The Schoenstein reworking is however more dignifiedI must say.





                The Triforium Bombarde division at Riverside was a set of trompettes harmonique at 8-4 and a mixture IV-VI based on 44 scale.In 1966 the organ was rebuilt by Gil Adams and the reeds by Aeolian-Skinner aforementioned on 7'' wind were relocated to the solo. The unison trompette on 14'' and the clairon on 10''. The revoicing was superbly done. A new reed to the Bombarde section at that time was a unit 16-8-4 Festival Trumpet voiced by Herb Stimpson or Oscar Pearson both of Aeolian-Skinner. A Mounted Cornet V was added whisc is one of the best i have both played and heard. Preps for a diapason chorus in the bombarde in 1966 actually ended up being a new Gallery division exposed in the rear of the nave and having 2/7 mouths on 5'' wind and based on a 43 scale unison stop of principal tone. These are glorious voices and were done by TommyAnderson and John Hendriksen both formerly of Aeolian-Skinner in 1980.




                The present Clavier des bombardes at Notre dame de paris seems not to be as left by cavaille-coll.I recall that he had a chorus of powerful trompettes and on his Grand orgue were a set of 16-8-4 bassons. Presently the G.O. has a chorus of trompettes and the former Bombarde section that became a solo section say around 1932 by Mutin has but a cromorne 8 and no other reeds.




                Austin Organs buily numerous instruments with solo-bombarde sections enclosed that had orch flutes, strings, reeds and a powerful mixture plus some chorus bombarde stops. A nice compromise for America.


                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Bombarde Divisions



                  The Riverside organ's Bombarde divisionalso had a prepared (and long-awaited)Tuba Mirabilis which was installedby the current curator, Robert Pearson.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Bombarde Divisions



                    So is there any difference between a Bombarde and a Fanafare division?




                    The Bombarde division at the Royal Albert Hall in London is enclosed in the Solo box, whereby the solo has the orchestral reeds and flues and the Bombarde is made ofjust thebig reeds. There are however the 16' 8' 4' chorus of tubas that are unenclosed and are dotted around the top of the organ case.




                    Jezza

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Bombarde Divisions



                      The terms are used rather loosely, unfortunately.




                      I imagine a Fanfare division to be made up of exceedingly loud reeds and possibly a loud mixture, whereas a Bombarde division might contain reeds, loud flues, mixtures, and cornets.




                      If we stick to the original French concept, the Bombarde was a sort of 'spillover' from the main Grand-orgue chest. This was mainly in order to keep the main chest from being too crowded, and to ensure adequate wind to both chests.




                      With modern organs there is perhaps less of a need to split divisions in such a way, so the modern Bombarde division is more of a convenience feature - it adds some flexibility. When we get away from the original purpose of such divisions, the definitions become blurred.




                      I like the term Solo/Bombarde, as it lets the organist know that two functions are being combined into one keyboard. If it is a very thoughtful design the Solo will be enclosed, the Bombarde, not. If a choice has to be made, it would be best to enclose both.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Bombarde Divisions

                        [quote user="soubasse32"]


                        The Riverside organ's Bombarde divisionalso had a prepared (and long-awaited)Tuba Mirabilis which was installedby the current curator, Robert Pearson.




                        [/quote]




                        Not exactly Dr Soubasse




                        In 1970 Fred Swann played for me a brief private demo of the Riverside organ. At that timeI inquired why the skinner pipes were replaced with Gil Adams. Among other things he said the Tuba Mirabilis in the solo stuck out like a sore thumb so it went and the former triforium reeds went in.In 1978 Bufano added a spanish chamade trumpet.By 1982 a knob appeared in the bombarde div jamb with tuba mirabilis.Swann said it was going in in October .Huh huh. So that prep was NOT contemplated in the 1966 design but crept in way later and was added even more later.The sound is dark and not English but more American maybe Wurlitzer-like. Swann had Trivo Co build him a tuba mirabilis for Crystal that was modeled after Wurlitzer.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Bombarde Divisions

                          [quote user="soubasse32"]


                          The terms are used rather loosely, unfortunately.




                          I imagine a Fanfare division to be made up of exceedingly loud reeds and possibly a loud mixture, whereas a Bombarde division might contain reeds, loud flues, mixtures, and cornets.




                          If we stick to the original French concept, the Bombarde was a sort of 'spillover' from the main Grand-orgue chest. This was mainly in order to keep the main chest from being too crowded, and to ensure adequate wind to both chests.




                          With modern organs there is perhaps less of a need to split divisions in such a way, so the modern Bombarde division is more of a convenience feature - it adds some flexibility. When we get away from the original purpose of such divisions, the definitions become blurred.




                          I like the term Solo/Bombarde, as it lets the organist know that two functions are being combined into one keyboard. If it is a very thoughtful design the Solo will be enclosed, the Bombarde, not. If a choice has to be made, it would be best to enclose both.




                          [/quote]




                          Not exactly.




                          The first Fanfare divisions in the USA were by the Aeolian firm and the Midmer-Losh Co.




                          The Dupont estate organ has a fanfare; so does the Hershey theater in penn. The Hershey job is 1931 and was actually made by Skinner after they bought out the Aeolian firm. The Fanfare at Hershey is a super ''swell'' reed chorus and NOT a division of loud Bombarde section voices. i was blown away by the utilitarian convenience of this floating super swell reed chorus louder than the regular swell reeds but NOT louder than the great or solo.





                          The Midmer-Losh at Boardwalk hall is loud---try 50'' wind--and is in the ceiling and the 4ft chamade is huge in scale and pointed directly into the angled ceiling grille and bolted to the chest with huge pins so that when it may play it wont take off like a missile projectile and harm some poor soul[s] down below.





                          The Dupont Aeolian Fanfare is probabaly likewise a huge chorus of not necessarily defeaning tone but I am venturing a guess and may be in error.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Bombarde Divisions

                            [quote user="sesquialtera16"][quote user="soubasse32"]


                            The terms are used rather loosely, unfortunately.




                            I imagine a Fanfare division to be made up of exceedingly loud reeds and possibly a loud mixture, whereas a Bombarde division might contain reeds, loud flues, mixtures, and cornets.




                            If we stick to the original French concept, the Bombarde was a sort of 'spillover' from the main Grand-orgue chest. This was mainly in order to keep the main chest from being too crowded, and to ensure adequate wind to both chests.




                            With modern organs there is perhaps less of a need to split divisions in such a way, so the modern Bombarde division is more of a convenience feature - it adds some flexibility. When we get away from the original purpose of such divisions, the definitions become blurred.




                            I like the term Solo/Bombarde, as it lets the organist know that two functions are being combined into one keyboard. If it is a very thoughtful design the Solo will be enclosed, the Bombarde, not. If a choice has to be made, it would be best to enclose both.




                            [/quote]




                            Not exactly.




                            [/quote]




                            It is unclearwhat you are questioning, as you respond with "Not exactly" to my entire post.




                            I said: "I imagine a Fanfare division to be made up of exceedingly loud reeds and possibly a loud mixture". If anything, the examples you cite only serve to corroborate what I have said.




                            If (as you say) the Fanfare reeds in Hershey are not loud, it would seem to be an anomaly. There aremore large reeds in the Fanfare (Post Horn 16', Post Horn 8', Harmonic Trumpet 8', Trumpet Militaire 8', and Clairon 4') as opposed to the three apparently smaller reeds in the (enclosed) Great: (Ophicleide 16', Tromba 8', Clarion 4').




                            Granted, perhaps the entire Great (with mixtures) may be louder than the Fanfare; however,I'm puzzled by your comment that that the Fanfare was not as loud as the Solo - especially asthe only loud reed in the Solo is a Tuba.




                            Perhaps the organ wasn't played at its best when you were there? [*-)] Or perhaps you were not aware of what the organist was playing, specifically?




                            The Fanfare division at Atlantic City does indeed have what I described - exceedingly loud reeds on as much as 50" of wind, and two mixtures on 20" and one on 35" of wind.




                            The Dupont Aeolian Fanfare is probabaly likewise a huge chorus of not necessarily defeaning tone but I am venturing a guess and may be in error.




                            I never said "deafening". [:)] The Longwood Gardens Fanfare division consists of four reeds on approximately 23" of wind. Perhaps they are not "exceedingly loud", however I would not want to stand next to them without ear protection. [:)] The Solo appears to have larger reeds and some mixture work, however this is a very unusual installation.




                            In fact, all three of your examples are exceedingly unusual installations. There have been numerous organs with Fanfare divisions built since then, and Ithink it is safe to assume most Fanfare divisionswould contain the loudest reeds and mixtures.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Bombarde Divisions

                              [quote user="sesquialtera16"][quote user="soubasse32"]


                              The Riverside organ's Bombarde divisionalso had a prepared (and long-awaited)Tuba Mirabilis which was installedby the current curator, Robert Pearson.




                              [/quote]




                              Not exactly Dr Soubasse




                              In 1970 Fred Swann played for me a brief private demo of the Riverside organ. At that timeI inquired why the skinner pipes were replaced with Gil Adams. Among other things he said the Tuba Mirabilis in the solo stuck out like a sore thumb so it went and the former triforium reeds went in.In 1978 Bufano added a spanish chamade trumpet.By 1982 a knob appeared in the bombarde div jamb with tuba mirabilis.Swann said it was going in in October .Huh huh. So that prep was NOT contemplated in the 1966 design but crept in way later and was added even more later.The sound is dark and not English but more American maybe Wurlitzer-like. Swann had Trivo Co build him a tuba mirabilis for Crystal that was modeled after Wurlitzer.




                              [/quote]




                              Here again, I'm not sure what you are questioning.




                              My statement:




                              "The Riverside organ's Bombarde division[true] also had a prepared [true] (and long-awaited [true])Tuba Mirabilis [true] which was installed[true] by the current [true] curator, Robert Pearson." [true]

                              Comment

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