Nomenclature for Diapason stops

[Hammondlover]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



A church down in Ithaca, New York has a 42-scale diapason, which has been labled 8' Montre (if i remember my French correctly, this means diapason?). However, their description of the tonality of the rank doesn't sound much like yours, farmboy. But of course recordings don't always bring out every detail.

http://russellorgans.com/opus/ithaca/index.html

[soubasse32]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



A Montre is a completely different thing.

Unfortunately, builders have used that name without understanding the principals (ha!) behind the construction of the pipe. On the referenced website, the builder even admits that this stop is more 'English' than 'French'. Why did they call it a Montre then? [^o)]So many buildersare quick to use the term Montre when they have used up the terms Principal and Diapason and are only looking fora different name. [^o)]

NYCFarmboy, yourrank in questionis definitely notaMontre. Montres are often slotted and would never have leathered lips. There are other issues, such as nicking, halving ratios, etc.

You could use a qualifying adjective, such as "Solo", or "Muted", etc.- but I would avoid certain adjectives which imply a special construction or treatment (such as "Phonon", which would seem to indicate leathered lips, and powerful, dullvoicing).Apparentlyyour Diapason had leathered lips at some point, but currently they do not.

I recommend using this website http://www.organstops.org/FullIndex.html tocheckvarious stop names and the construction ofthose stops. On the page http://www.organstops.org/o/OpenDiapason.htmlyou will notice some sound clips - from this you canhear that a true French Montre can sound either a bit stringyor a bit flutey, depending on which part of thekeyboard you play.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

I'm not going to order stoptabs for any of the new stops until I hear how they sound in reality. I have plenty of blanks to use in the meantime.

I strongly suspect the rank to sound MUCH better in person. The diapason rank I have now is rather strident and powerful...I'm very much looking forward to a mellower & deeper rank....but who knows..everything always sounds so different once you get it set up ...will be very interesting to see. I was VERY glad I made the trip out to Nevada, iowa to play the 412 organ. As noted the entire organ sounded muddy. Really shocking how small the expression shutters were for such a large organ. It didn't sound that great in the room at all. but I do strongly suspect it be radically different sounding in my house as it is on higher wind pressure than the present 822 opus...which is PLENTY loud..so it will be interesting!



I'm thinking etiher just plain ol' Diapason (the Diapason on the 822 is actually labeled Open Diapason so I can keep it as a "diapason"...but I do like many of the suggestions and very well might go with Solo Diapason, or Diapason Magna or even Farm Diapason..or Hoosierphone (I like that one alot). Whether I put the leather back on...that would be interesting. But I'm not sure what it would accomplish other than just making the sound duller than it already is?

[Guest]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



Wurlitzer used three basic types of diapasons, Horn Diapason (more harmonic development, lower volume, 10" wind), Open Diapason (louder, standard diapason used in all organs, somewhat smoother than a classical organ, 10" wind normally), and Diaphonic Diapason (loud, smoother yet, 15" wind). This is the method they used to distinguish the types of diapasons.

Church instruments of the time simply had 1st, 2nd, 3rd diapasons from loudest to softest. Diapason Phonon is a name used by Hope-Jones for a leathered upper lip diapason, the leathered lip is not really necessary as long as the upper lip is thick and usually rounded. A loud solo diapason was called a Stentorphone on some organs. A diapason stop is supposed to be one of the boldest stops on the organ, at least in English styles. It certainly is in my pipe organ (Wurlitzer).

A question, is a scale 42 large or small, how many inches diameter at 8' C? A medium scale would be 5.5" to 6" diameter, I believe. If your pipes are very soft, the wind presseur may have been reduced below the design value. If this was done, the pipes will get softer and fluty sounding.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

42 scale is very large...i'm not sure of the diameter (dont' have a tool to measure that wide but I'll try to eyeball it with a ruler tomorrow)...42 scale are at least twice as wide as a "violin Diapason"..and about 40 percent larger than a 46 scale diapason.


I've only seen one other 42 scale diapason in person and that was on the opus 195 theatre organ in El Paso..it was also 42 scale...but had a wood bridge at the mouths (the 42 scale on the opus 412 does not)....they sound very similar though. The opus 195 is labled a "horn diapason"..but it was indeed at 10 inches of wind...the opus 412 42 scale diapason is only on 6 inches of wind by design.

[soubasse32]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



[quote user="NYCFarmboy"]42 scale is very large...i'm not sure of the diameter (dont' have a tool to measure that wide but I'll try to eyeball it with a ruler tomorrow)...42 scale are at least twice as wide as a "violin Diapason"..and about 40 percent larger than a 46 scale diapason. [/quote]

42 scale is quite large, but it is notall that rare. I play a new organ that has a 43 scale Principal, and it sounds just about right for the room. Dom Bedos lists 155.7 mm (44 scale) as a normal Diapason size.

42 scale would be 169.5 mm or6.67".

Remember that the scale of one pipe tells you nothing - you need to know the halving ratio. [:)]

[Guest]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

The old fat diapasons from the 20s and 30s halve on the 17th note so knowing the vintage of a stop does tell you a lot.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

MenchenStimme's idea won!



I've went with "Grand Diapason 8" for the 42 scale Open Diapason in the swell of the expanded Reuter 822 pipe organ in my home.

I got in a stoptab for Solo Diapason but the stop is definately not very loud, but is indeed very grand as a mixing stop. Many notes are not working on it so I don't have a recording of it by itself, but it is indeed a very broad scale deep romantic diapason, but definately not overly loud.



A recording with the Grand Diapason (and several other stops) at:


http://www.reuter822.com/2008412bwv552.html

Note the organ has not been tuned, so its basically a big huge celeste right now..lol...but I'm beyond thrilled with how it is sounding.

You can see the 42 scale rank at the right side of the 412 chest here, the largest 12 pipes are on the separate offset chest due to their large size:

[FrenchHorn8]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

ahem! Why is there a rag sticking out of that chest!?  ...and who did those pipe ties on the Tuba? They look very nice!

[soubasse32]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



[quote user="FrenchHorn8"]ahem! Why is there a rag sticking out of that chest!?[/quote]

Since it is a house organ, perhaps that is where NYCFarmboy hangs his unmentionables out to dry! [:D]

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

Trevor, Tim said you weren't real thrilled with his towel wind line plugs. lol

[KleinErzahler]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



Say, what's going in that empty spot at the front of the chest?

 

      - N 

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

that is the Flute celeste..i'll post some pics tomorrow (very similar to a gemshorn, but to my ears sounds like a dulciana celeste.


in fact, we are using the bottom octave of the Dulciana 8' that should be in that space to celeste with the Spitzflute as the sound is nearly identical...to complete the celeste rank for a full 61 notes.



It is up and place and playing although that side of that chest has alot of dead note issues.

[FrenchHorn8]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

John, you should have Ed check the resistance of those magnets with a meter to make sure they're good.  All the dead notes from the console seemed to work when I poked the magnet armature.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

okdokie will have him check that tomorrow.

Here are some photographs of Trevor (& Tim's) rackboard for the Spitzflote 8' and Spitz Celeste:











I was hoping this rank would be more flutey, but instead it is very stringy and dulciana like.

The celeste is only partially affective as so many dead notes on that side of the chest..I think once we get all the dead notes working on the celeste it is going to sound marvelous!