Nomenclature for Diapason stops

[Terpodion]

I vote for Solo Diapason. The slots are too wide for Horn Diapason, it's not big enough for Phonon Diapason and they usually have leathered lips. Theoretically you will be using this stop as a solo voice, for playing melodic passages and it's won't blend well enough for use as a chorus rank.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

wow..thank you! :) yes very much a French Romantic at heart...and yeah..I know it drives many nuts but I like alot of reverberation. I can't listen to a pipe organ recording that is in a dead space or is not reverberated at least somewhat..I know Biggs added reverberation to his recordings and that REALLY helps a organ sound better...the biggest thing Reverberation does it is covers up minor tuning issues and very ugly stops making them actually very enjoyable to listen to.

If you were in my house the organ sounds "ok" but...it is a dead space and it is just now how I think music should be heard. I get alot of grief from my organ buddies that want to hear the pipes voice as it is "au natural" but to me it is not the purpose to hear how it sounds...my own purpose is to find music that sounds good with a instrument that is accoustically presented as it was designed for...and most grand pipe organs are indeed designed for reverberant spaces.

[Clarion]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



[quote user="NYCFarmboy"].....and having the true luxury of so many 8' ranks I am just now discovering new textures/nuances in music in particular on Bach & Buxtehude that I've not noticed before.

The Grand Diapason has really opened up a new chapter in terms of the 822 being able to play more of the baroque music in a more 'listenable' way.[/quote]

Well . . . you've certainly managed to orchestrate some of these baroque werks outside-of-the-box,taking them a hundred years ahead to a yet unrealizedera,and how they might havebeen written/playedifthey had lived in 1800sFrance. Your In Dulci Jubilo is a rather good example. I manages to translate ever-so-well intoFrench. It doesn't sound at all baroque, so much as French Romantic; and every time I play this piece, including your three hour reverb [;)]it really sounds like French stuff being played in a French Cathedral! And it takes on the warm sugarymelodic characteristics of the endless array 8' stops associated with such music. Who would ever suspect that thisis a Bux compostion?

The organs of the Bac/Bux era were ratherSpartan. The 8' stops on the typical 24stop Weimar Castle instrumentofera was pretty much limited to thefew flute and diapason confines of the era:

Upper
Principal 8
Gemshorn 8
Gedackt 8

Lower
Principal 8
Violadigamba 8
Gedackt 8

(Trompette 8)

I think you have ably demonstrated that we don't need to remain stuck in the same 'ole baroque rut; and that romanticizing some of the old stuff can result in an entirely new compostion, for all practical purposes. [:)]

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

lol...don't know what ol' Bux would think..I don't have the luxury of knowing what stops to pull as I don't work from any marked score..I just have the MIDI files which are "notes" only...so I just pull whatever stops I think sound best on the 822....sometimes it can really do something quite nicely in a style that is I'm very sure not at all what the composer had in mind....that is what I enjoy most..is just trying different combinations on a work until I can get the 822 to sound the best for any given score.....and having the true luxury of so many 8' ranks I am just now discovering new textures/nuances in music in particular on Bach & Buxtehude that I've not noticed before.

The Grand Diapason has really opened up a new chapter in terms of the 822 being able to play more of the baroque music in a more 'listenable' way.

[Clarion]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



[quote user="NYCFarmboy"]http://www.reuter822.com/2008/1113bux197.html

Thanks Clarion.....I agree..that is one of my all time fav. recordings to date.

Registration:

I'm not sure but here it is I think:


Swell:
Grand Diapason 8', Spitz Flote 8', Flute Celeste 8', Echo Salicional 8' and Vox Celeste 8'


Great: Octave 4' with 16' coupler, plus Swell to Great 8'

pedal:
Subbass 16', Lieblich Gedeckt 16' and Swell to Pedal.

The Octave 4' gives it that chiff/pop that really accentuates that work....the Octave 4' was a 1970's addition to the Reuter opus 638 pipe organ in Nevada, Iowa. A really lovely neo-baroque sounding rank. (aside from being on 6 inches of wind).[/quote]

Pretty much the basic foundationI expected, other than for at leastone more(stringy) diapason stops. But you have a just fewmore 8' stops than most of us have the priviledge of playing with. [:$] And they sound reallygreat in ensemble!

Having been sort of taken up by your rather heritical romantic redition of Bux197, prompted by curiosity, I pulled out my totally ignored unfamiliar Bux197 score. My immediate pre-conditioned response in viewing the score was to pull:

Swell/Solo:Open Diapason, Gedackt and Oboe (+Cornopean); or alternately a full array of mutations !All coupled to the pedals for uncompromised definition;

Great: Abunchof 8'Diapasons/Gedackts, along withsome4'Octaves and Flutes to augment definition.

I enjoyyour unique dulci version over any of the others I've heard/played so far! [:)]

Would Bux approve??

[Clarion]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



[quote user="NYCFarmboy"]I like micing the organ up close . . ..[/quote]

Okay . . .since this micing-thing seems to be something generally associated with stuff cats do,I looked it up in the dictionary. No micing! Just:

mike (mºk) Informal. n. 1. A microphone. 2. See Regional Note at igg. --mike tr.v. miked, mik·ing, mikes.
To supply with or transmit through a microphone. [AHD]

[:$]

[m&m's]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

[quote user="AllanP"]


John,

I compared the sound of your grand diapason with my Wurlitzer Open Diapason. Yours has a somewhat breathy sound (for want of a better description). Comparing your Melodia with the Wurlitzer Flute gives again the same effect except that yours has a somewhat breathy sound (for want of a better description).

I wonder what causes the difference in sound? The basic effect is very similar but when using an individual stop at 8', the Wurlitzer lacks the breathy sound. Is it possible that enclosure in the swell chamber causes this change in effect? Did you do your recording near the pipes? Of necessity, I listened to mine outside the chamber after the sound passes through a mixing room to allow the sounds to blend before reaching the console. Does higher pressure tend to remove the breathiness (which seems to give a more delicate effect)? When used in combination 8', 4', 2', the diapason chorus sounds very similar.

Discussion of these questions may lead to some insight as to the fundamentals of organ design. It seems that selecting all Reuter pipes as you have done makes the ranks blend better.

Allan

[/quote]

Allen, you are hearing the difference between theatre sound and church sound. Wurlitzer pipeswould not have a "breathy" sound-Wurlitzer didn't do things like that. Part of it iswind pressure, part is simply the voicing of the pipes themselves. I don't know if you could drop the pressure on your organ and get that sound. Probably not;at a lower pressure, the pipes may not even sound, or may struggle to produce a sound.

Some revoicing is possible with any pipe, but only to a certain extent.A Wurlitzer diapason is not going to sound like a Barogue principal, no matter what you do, short of completely remaking the pipe, which is a completely different matter.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

http://www.reuter822.com/2008/1113bux197.html

Thanks Clarion.....I agree..that is one of my all time fav. recordings to date.

Registration:



I'm not sure but here it is I think:




Swell:
Grand Diapason 8', Spitz Flote 8', Flute Celeste 8', Echo Salicional 8' and Vox Celeste 8'


Great: Octave 4' with 16' coupler, plus Swell to Great 8'


pedal:
Subbass 16', Lieblich Gedeckt 16' and Swell to Pedal.

The Octave 4' gives it that chiff/pop that really accentuates that work....the Octave 4' was a 1970's addition to the Reuter opus 638 pipe organ in Nevada, Iowa. A really lovely neo-baroque sounding rank. (aside from being on 6 inches of wind).


Allan:...I agree...I have 21 ranks and i'm at 19 of them REuter....2 are not..one is a Moller clarinet which sounds good so I'm leaving it...the other is a Austin Trumpet...that has a wondeful history, but just sounds wrong on the organ....so...i'm looking for a nice Reuter trumpet that will match the organ better.


Regards the recordings..yes I mic the organ with 2 mics basically on top of the 822 main chest so they record the "wisp"/breathing noises of the pipes VERy well.....then I have a 3rd mic downstairs.

I like micing the organ up close to get the pipe speech....however that does mean I get alot of blower noise/wind noises despite the organ being pretty quiet.

[Clarion]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



[quote user="NYCFarmboy"]I forgot to mention the most important thing...Reuter regulated this rank last fall when they were here, so it is quite even and I think sounds very nice even when unified to 8'-4'-2' . [/quote]

I don't know how anyone could tell this was unified. The upper octaves are nicely balanced against the lower ones to provide just the right amount of definition and independence without sounding strident.

Your November 13, 2008 recording of BuxWV197, In Dulci Jubilo, has me going back for more, over and over again. It is very beautiful ensemble! Do you know which stops were used for this?

[quote user="NYCFarmboy"]Hi Clarian...believe it or not I like shooting with a Canon SD1000... it will shoot in standard definition u.s. television format and the audio is not half bad. And it is about the size of a deck of cards.[/quote]

Thanks for the tip. That's something I never though of; although I just bought my wife a new Canon SD880 a couple months ago.All she wanted wasan itsy-bitsy3" camera carry-everywhere, with a 3" screen! [;)]

Anyway . . .I checked the manual, andit apparently does 640x480 video, plus 44.1k audio. So that seems to bequite adequate to play around with this medium a bit.

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



John,

I compared the sound of your grand diapason with my Wurlitzer Open Diapason. Yours has a somewhat breathy sound (for want of a better description). Comparing your Melodia with the Wurlitzer Flute gives again the same effect except that yours has a somewhat breathy sound (for want of a better description).

I wonder what causes the difference in sound? The basic effect is very similar but when using an individual stop at 8', the Wurlitzer lacks the breathy sound. Is it possible that enclosure in the swell chamber causes this change in effect? Did you do your recording near the pipes? Of necessity, I listened to mine outside the chamber after the sound passes through a mixing room to allow the sounds to blend before reaching the console. Does higher pressure tend to remove the breathiness (which seems to give a more delicate effect)? When used in combination 8', 4', 2', the diapason chorus sounds very similar.

Discussion of these questions may lead to some insight as to the fundamentals of organ design. It seems that selecting all Reuter pipes as you have done makes the ranks blend better.

Allan

[davidecasteel]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



Very nice!

David

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops

Did a recording with the Grand Diapason at 8/4/2...i.e. with a 4' and 2' coupler....and the Lieblich Gedeckt 16' on the pedal:

http://www.reuter822.com/2009/0110bux184.html

i forgot to mention the most important thing...Reuter regulated this rank last fall when they were here, so it is quite even and I think sounds very nice even when unified to 8'-4'-2' .

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



The Girard College Skinner is the very last organ signed under the Skinner name in 1931 before the Aeolian-Skinner name became effective. The great has a stopped diapason 8 of metal and is enclosed with the choir.

Aeolian-Skinner metal Bourdons were capped possibly with felt lining. Any metal stops with chimneys were either Rohrflote or chimney flute.I have not seen a C-C bourdon butI knew it was chimneyd. Chimneys are made in a variety of diameters. The one that is the biggest is the rohrpfeife and its chimney is circa one scale smaller than the pipe itself.

[soubasse32]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



A Stopped Diapason is a flute.

I must disagree with the statement that it is an equivalent to the French Bourdon. A Stopped Diapason is most frequently made of wood and is typically stoppered, whereas the FrenchBourdon is typically a metal chimney flute. Tonally very different.

[bootchman]

Re: Nomenclature for Diapason stops



The name Stopped Diapason is the traditional English equivalent of the
German Gedeckt,
the French Bourdon,
and the Spanish Tapadillo.
It dates at least as far back as the beginning of the 16th century,
and was adopted by early American organ builders.
The name denotes a stopped flute of 8' pitch, usually made of wood, though sometimes
of metal from middle C upward.
Bonavia-Hunt suggests that its stoppers are sometimes pierced after the manner
of a Chimney Flute.
Sumner describes the Stopped Diapason as the second 8' stop in English
Great, Choir and Swell organs until the smaller-scaled
Lieblich Gedeckt became popular after 1851,
but notes that it “did not cloy as quickly as modern lieblichs”.
According to Wedgwood, early English builders frequently voiced this stop with
a prominent 12th, thus having excellent blending properties: they were virtually
Quintatons.
Hopkins & Rimbault describe its tone as
fluty and mellow, free from all reediness or roughness,
and mention that when used alone, it is better suited for solo work
than polyphony. <http://www.organstops.org/index.html>

Roy Knight