Deagan Chimes Action Voltage

[Tokkemon]

Our church has added a beautiful set of chimes to our organ. The tubes are Mayland Elite but the action is an older Deagan with active dampers. All the electronics have been completed, connected to the matrix etc. The only issue we have is the volume. We bought OSI's dedicated chimes transformer with its six taps (VAC): 28.3, 23.7, 19.3, 16, 13, 9.7. We have the volume switch set up with relays to the top five levels, but the botom-most level (13V) doesn't have enough voltage for the solenoids to actually hit the tubes. I can only assume this is because these are older solenoids and the OSI transformer is designed to work with modern ones which require less voltage.

My idea: to add a volume level *above* 28.3V so we can have a louder option to fill out the five levels. Has anyone had experience with this? I'm not sure how far to push these solenoids and I don't want to damage them as we don't have any spares. Would 34V be reasonable?

example photos are attached from the restoration process.

[AllenAnalog]

When I looked at my data sheet for the Peterson chimes driver board (which I believe you are using) I did not see any information about whether the board puts out a pulse of voltage to strike the chime or if it keeps the voltage on the solenoids for as long as you hold the key down (therefore keeping the damper activated for that duration). If it puts out a timed pulse, no matter how long you hold down the key, that may be the problem. The pulse might not be long enough for your older solenoids.

If the output is sustained for as long as you hold the key, I'm wondering if there is voltage drop in the wiring, since you are operating both the striker and damper solenoids for each note. You should measure the voltage at the chimes solenoids and compare it to the output voltage of the selected transformer tap, both with and without a chime being struck.

I don't have my original Deagan transformer near me at this time so I can't measure the five voltages it puts out. It was my impression that the maximum voltage was in the 24 to 28 Volt range but I don't have any way to verify that right now. I do see on the Peterson install sheet that they recommend using 16 AWG wires from the driver board to the chimes solenoids for up to 20 feet. For 20 to 50 feet they recommend 14 AWG wires and above that distance 12 AWG. That's some hefty wire. The alternative is to mount the driver board closer to the chimes action.

I'm always reluctant to push higher voltages through old windings in solenoids, especially when the exact coils are no longer available and would have to be rewound by hand if they were to burn out.

[toodles]

In furtherance of AnalogAllen's reply: measure the DC resistance of the striker and damper coils--wired as the action has them wired, so just the resistance of the input wire to the common. You can use an on-line wire resistance calculator to determine the resistance of your wire from the driver to the chimes unit based on the gauge and length of wire. Apply Ohm's law, and you can see what the voltage drop is of your wire to determine if that is a likely problem.

[myorgan]

Tokkemon,

Thank you for starting this thread. This summer I'll be getting my chimes put together and finding parts I'm missing, so your thread is very timely for me.

Thanks so much.

Michael

[Tokkemon]

When I looked at my data sheet for the Peterson chimes driver board (which I believe you are using) I did not see any information about whether the board puts out a pulse of voltage to strike the chime or if it keeps the voltage on the solenoids for as long as you hold the key down (therefore keeping the damper activated for that duration). If it puts out a timed pulse, no matter how long you hold down the key, that may be the problem. The pulse might not be long enough for your older solenoids.

If the output is sustained for as long as you hold the key, I'm wondering if there is voltage drop in the wiring, since you are operating both the striker and damper solenoids for each note. You should measure the voltage at the chimes solenoids and compare it to the output voltage of the selected transformer tap, both with and without a chime being struck.

I don't have my original Deagan transformer near me at this time so I can't measure the five voltages it puts out. It was my impression that the maximum voltage was in the 24 to 28 Volt range but I don't have any way to verify that right now. I do see on the Peterson install sheet that they recommend using 16 AWG wires from the driver board to the chimes solenoids for up to 20 feet. For 20 to 50 feet they recommend 14 AWG wires and above that distance 12 AWG. That's some hefty wire. The alternative is to mount the driver board closer to the chimes action.

I'm always reluctant to push higher voltages through old windings in solenoids, especially when the exact coils are no longer available and would have to be rewound by hand if they were to burn out.

We are using the Peterson board which is quite nice. It is not a pulse, it just converts the DC signals to AC so the solenoids are energized as long as the key is held down. This is good because then the organist can control the sustain of the chime, which I thought was a gimmick at first, but then I tried it in actual music and it really makes a difference in the musicality of the chimes.

I've checked for voltage drops and there's next to none, maybe 0.1 volts at best. We're using some good wire too. We've ruled out the whole relay side of things.

[toodles]

Since you are using a Deagan transformer, and got it from OSI, I suggest you consult them They are now the manufacturer of both Deagan and Mayland products, and are sure to know the requirements and specifications for both.

[AllenAnalog]

It turns out I still have my original Deagan chimes transformer here in Denver. So I wired it up and measured the five voltages on the secondary - with no load. They are 31.5V, 27.3V, 26.1V, 23.1V and 19.8V with an incoming line voltage of 123.0 Volts. Those numbers will drop a bit when a load is applied.

So definitely higher than what you are getting out of the OSI transformer. My lowest tap is no where near as low as your bottom three voltages. I would suggest checking the incoming line voltage on the primary of your transformer and then adding a Variac (autotransformer) to the transformer primary to boost the secondary voltages to be more like what I have measured.

It's quite possible that the solenoid coils used in modern OSI chime actions have much less resistance than the old Deagon coils and would therefore draw more current than the Deagan units when run at the same voltage. That would give more kick to the plungers.

I wouldn't think there would be any problem with the transformer primary running 10% higher in voltage, nor should the Peterson driver board have a problem with that. And the chimes action obviously is used to those slightly higher voltages. Unfortunately a 10% boost is still not going to make much difference in your lowest three voltages to get enough volume out of the striker solenoids.

(And tell John H. I said hello!)

[Tokkemon]

It turns out I still have my original Deagan chimes transformer here in Denver. So I wired it up and measured the five voltages on the secondary - with no load. They are 31.5V, 27.3V, 26.1V, 23.1V and 19.8V with an incoming line voltage of 123.0 Volts. Those numbers will drop a bit when a load is applied.

So definitely higher than what you are getting out of the OSI transformer. My lowest tap is no where near as low as your bottom three voltages. I would suggest checking the incoming line voltage on the primary of your transformer and then adding a Variac (autotransformer) to the transformer primary to boost the secondary voltages to be more like what I have measured.

It's quite possible that the solenoid coils used in modern OSI chime actions have much less resistance than the old Deagon coils and would therefore draw more current than the Deagan units when run at the same voltage. That would give more kick to the plungers.

I wouldn't think there would be any problem with the transformer primary running 10% higher in voltage, nor should the Peterson driver board have a problem with that. And the chimes action obviously is used to those slightly higher voltages. Unfortunately a 10% boost is still not going to make much difference in your lowest three voltages to get enough volume out of the striker solenoids.

(And tell John H. I said hello!)

Thanks for this. We will give it a try. Its interesting to see how the taps on your transformer are closer together than the OSI one.

How do you know John???

[AllenAnalog]

Glad I was able to measure those voltages to help solve this mystery. My Deagan chime tubes and action have already been moved to Grand Junction but as I was packing stuff today I realized I still had the transformer here in Denver.

John and I were both very involved with the Cornell Chimes and are good friends. He emailed pics of your chimes project to me. Small world.