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  • F Kalbrenner
    replied
    I also feel that anther huge problem is not just having an open 32' rank but also the issue of having enough bass to help round out huge amounts of space and also support a large organ. One instrument I have been thinking about for a while is the organ at the Crystal Cathedral. According to an article from the Diapason the organ had a number of digital stops added over the years to help reinforce the pedal division due to poor acoustics

    https://www.thediapason.com/content/cover-feature-84

    Oh I just remembered another example of an organ the was expanded with digital stops witch is the Schuke organ at the Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church in Germany.

    https://www.die-orgelseite.de/disp/D...tniskirche.htm
    Last edited by F Kalbrenner; 05-21-2020, 08:27 PM.

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  • voet
    replied
    There is an excellent article by Stephen Bicknell that is a thorough discussion of many of the topics discussed in this thread. Not only does he point out many of the solutions to achieve low bass, he gives insights that will help an organist use harmonics more effectively.

    Here is the link: http://www.stephenbicknell.org/3.6.01.php

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  • samibe
    replied
    This is probably going to expose my limited understanding about pipe construction, but hopefully I'll learn something.

    Is it possible to fold a flue pipe similar to a transmission line speaker? How wide are 32' boudon pipes, usually?
    Last edited by samibe; 05-21-2020, 04:12 PM.

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  • F Kalbrenner
    commented on 's reply
    Oh sorry for the long wait, I didn't know anyone had responded to me comment.
    But anyway I guess my concern is that with wide spread use of digital 32' stops I feel that this is a reminder of how difficult it is for even in a big cathedral to have flute or principle pipes at 32' pitch. I'm kind of desperately looking at ways of designing a flue pipe that sounds like a 32' Contra Bourdon or a deep flute but also physically much smaller than a 32' flue pipe, but I feel like I would have better luck at inventing a perpetual motion machine.

  • jbird604
    commented on 's reply
    It's an historic issue!

  • myorgan
    commented on 's reply
    Amen to that, Sathrandur! Proper English is rapidly disappearing.

    Michael

  • Sathrandur
    commented on 's reply
    You get a like for using the correct indefinite article.

  • davidecasteel
    commented on 's reply
    We'd have to put them horizontal above the Swell or hang them on one of the Transept walls (my favorite idea).

  • myorgan
    commented on 's reply
    What is the issue with a double-open wood? They make great choir benches unless someone sits on the mouth!

    Michael

  • F Kalbrenner
    replied
    I have to confess that I'm not a huge fan of incorporating digital voices into pipe organs as I just feel that it ruins the magic of the idea of a machine that creates music by blowing air through pipes. But I guess what else can be done as 32' stops aren't getting any smaller and I'm not sure if any of my crazy ideas are enough to solve the issue of space.

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  • aeolian pat
    replied
    Take a 10 foot piece of 3/4 PVC schedule 40 conduit, blow into the bell end as if it were a trombone, you'll like the sound.

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  • myorgan
    commented on 's reply
    WOW!!! All I can say is, WOW!!! What will they think of next?

    I wonder how well it would work on flue pipes of 16' or 32' pitch. I would think the mouth might pose a problem.

    Michael

  • Leisesturm
    replied
    It may well be that diaphone construction, or paper, or fiberglass ... yah, no question, these products will have some small advantage over construction lumber for making very large organ pipes. Not enough to make it worth the trying though. It simply cannot be denied that sampled waveforms, reproduced, amplified, and dispersed through subwoofers have a colossal advantage in materials savings. There is no contest. And I don't know how much of an argument from a sound quality standpoint can be supported. Rumble is rumble, for the most part. Most pipe organs don't have any 32' stops actually. For the vast majority there isn't any kind of pipe or pipe like construction that will make it happen. Truth to tell, quite a few struggle to obtain 16' tone in any variety.

    The pipe organ entry in Wikipedia for years has floated the argument that 32' stops are not only not necessary but they are detrimental, and just reflect badly on the builders penchant for excess. That has always made me grind my teeth. Who allowed that to go unchallenged? The truth is that since most installations simply don't have the resources to make acoustic 32' tone happen, they console themselves by saying "well who needs those big old scary sounds anyway".

    You have to be under a pretty big rock to not notice that the stoplists of VPO samplesets of any size include at least two 32' stops, and three or four are not at all unusual. I am even seeing 64' stops pop up here and there in the odd sampleset. The gauntlet has been thrown down! If pipe organ builders want to stay relevant in the 21st Century, they will not be able to dismiss 32' tone as wretched excess. Obtaining these ranks digitally is the only supportable proposition from a sustainability standpoint. As I said earlier, APOBA (Associated Pipe Organ Builders of America) readily recognizes this and gives member organizations full dispensation when 32' tone is obtained digitally in an installation.

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  • F Kalbrenner
    replied
    Regarding the cost of materials one idea that I have mentioned before on a previous thread that may work is using a cheaper material like cardboard. It's not an unheard of idea as it was recommended as a cheaper alternative in the book Organ Building for Amateurs by Mark Wicks. The only major concern I have is how thick or strong the cardboard needs to be so the pipes don't collapse under their own wight.

    Another idea that might work at saving money and space on a 32' stop is the idea of organ pipes that can play more than one note.
    Recently a video appeared of a one of a kind Wurlitzer 32' diaphone where each pipe can play two notes.




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  • aeolian pat
    replied
    Regularly listening to concerts at a church that added a Walker 32 stopped flute, The building is large and very live. I have noticed that almost all players now use the stop as often as they play a pedal part. It is not so loud as to be heard as a subbass but its presence as an harmonic support is incredible. It supports the 16 foot line and you have to ask how the 16 foot become so strong but not loud.

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