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  • samibe
    commented on 's reply
    I'm having deja vu with this conversation. And I think the last time we had it, we determined that having a room large enough to match resonance with large stops was not required (headphones for example). Sure it's not as efficient and the speakers work harder, but their frequencies are still produced and move through the air even if they can't form a standing wave in the room.

  • j reimer
    commented on 's reply
    My take on this is that you are hearing harmonics of the 32' note, or (if you are lucky) your brain is picking up on resultants produced by the 3rd harmonic of the 32' note and the fundamental of the 16' note.

  • Leisesturm
    replied
    Originally posted by voet View Post
    I wonder how many home organs are in rooms that would not be able to produce the standing wave length of the fundamental of a 32 foot stop. This would probably not be a problem in a church or concert hall, but I suspect it would be for many residences.
    About that ... is that actually necessary? I mean ... I don't think my living room is that large but I have no trouble identifying a 32' stop when one is used in anger in an organ recording. Even without the sub-woofer on, my towers manage to make a clear distinction between 16' stops and 32' stops. Anyone else notice this?

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  • myorgan
    commented on 's reply
    Bill, you make a great point. Perhaps people are hoping a 16' room will do?

    Michael

  • voet
    replied
    I wonder how many home organs are in rooms that would not be able to produce the standing wave length of the fundamental of a 32 foot stop. This would probably not be a problem in a church or concert hall, but I suspect it would be for many residences.

    Leave a comment:


  • davidecasteel
    commented on 's reply
    Our Klais instrument has a 10 2/3' Aliquot III in the Pedal, the base frequency of which is the 3rd harmonic of a 32' register--when used with the 32' Untersatz and 16' Subbass it provides a satisfactory 32' tone without having to bring on the 32' Bombarde.

  • myorgan
    commented on 's reply
    Agreed, Leisesturm. However, your spousal acceptance factor may be different than mine. When I play an organ with good 32' stops, she plants herself, crosslegged in the middle of the floor and soaks it up! I'm guessing she likes the song, "I feel the earth move under my feet...."

    Michael

  • Leisesturm
    replied
    The "no free lunch" principle seems to have been forgotten in this discussion. It is tempting to want to consider stopped pipe construction as a 'free pass' to 32' (64'!) tone with a high SAF (spousal acceptance factor). Doesn't quite work that way. Besides the speech issue, there is the fact that, in order to sound like a Bourdon at all, a bottom octave 32' rank stopped pipe needs to be double the width of the equivalent open pipe to preserve the scaling that confers the timbre consistent with the construction.

    That is the main reason why, ever since they became widely available, organ builders have been using digital extensions for the 32' ranks. And APOBA allows member builders to remain in good standing even when they use digital extensions in their work. IMO resultants rarely work as the only 32' voice in an organ. The best examples are extremely soft. They purr more than they rumble. When rumble is needed. accept no substitutes. Insist on genuine stopped, or open, 32' ranks™ (or their digital equivalents).

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  • myorgan
    commented on 's reply
    There was quite a discussion of Resultants a few years ago in this thread: https://organforum.com/forums/forum/...-64-resultants
    There was another discussion about tuning them here: https://organforum.com/forums/forum/...a-resultant-32

    Michael

  • ChristopherDB113
    replied
    First off, I am glad you were able to experience playing a large organ in a massive cathedral that has 'live' acoustics and no other people in the building (that you knew of). Been there. Done that. Remember it like yesterday. Want to do it again.

    What personally thrills me about the 32' bourdon is the rumble it adds. Others have commented on the weight and expense involved to install this rank. Its my understanding that some organs will have a pedal stop that is 10' and some fraction, which due to the nature of harmonics will give a nice rumble when played with a 16' principal. I'm pretty sure there are other ways to get the rumble with more conservatively sized ranks blended in.

    In short, if you are just going for the low end rumble, you can get there without a 32' stop of any kind.

    Leave a comment:


  • VaPipeorgantuner
    replied
    Personally, I would probably opt for a haskelled 32' stop...that still has the advantage of less than full length height BUT the quicker onset of speech would be a great advantage, because, as someone else has pointed out, 32' bourdons are quite slow to speak even if roller beards or other voicing techniques are applied. The other advantage of the haskelled stop is the better harmonic development. Bourdons, as do all stopped pipes) emphasize the odd order harmonics so the pedal line has less definition.

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  • Philip Powell
    commented on 's reply
    My brother has played an organ with 32' bourbon stop and the builder was actually there and he told my brother that 32' bourdons are not common because of the cost and the difficulty to install. I believe the difficulty to install has something to do with making the pipe have adequate speech. This is all I know (or my brother knows!).

  • davidecasteel
    commented on 's reply
    IMO, the impact of 32' stops is not via hearing, but feeling. One can sense the power of the air vibrations even if one doesn't perceive it as sound. It sort of envelopes one in waves of pulsing pressure.

    My church's Klais instrument has 2 32' stops, but both are with half-length resonators, and there is a full-range 64' Resultant stop. I was on the Organ Selection Committee and really wanted our new church to have a full-length 32' Open Wood, but it didn't happen. I still think it should have one and may eventually see one added--our bass is a little "thin" in my estimation within our big worship space (seats 1300). There are ways that full-length 32' pipes could be accommodated, but not easily.

    (Hi, Sathrandur!)

  • myorgan
    replied
    Originally posted by Sathrandur View Post
    Hello all, I have been absent a while.
    You have, indeed!!! I've thought of you several times when certain classical topics come up. I trust you had a good Summer and are ready for Winter.

    My guess regarding why there are no 32' Contre Bourdons in some of the larger organs has to do with the presence of speech. Of course, we all know the longer the pipe, the slower the speech tends to be, however, I know some of those characteristics can be mitigated somewhat with voicing adjustments. In a stopped pipe of that length, the slowness of speech tends to be longer than a shorter pipe, no matter how good the voicing.

    I've seen many examples of a 16' Bourdon, but none of the 32' variety. They exist, of course, but only in some of the largest organs, and in those organs, there are other, more present-speaking-stops that can be employed until the 32' Contre Bourdon weighs in and provides the foundation. I could be wrong, but I think it also takes longer for the sound to stop in a larger pipe as well.

    Just my uneducated guess. Now, ask a pipe builder!

    Michael

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  • toodles
    replied
    Even a 32 ft contra bourdon is an expensive stop to build, so "assuming no cost factors" is not really a valid assumption. In addition to the cost and weight of the stop, there needs to be enough wind to support the stop. Most churches, I suspect, can handle the height of the stop.

    But a 32 stop has, for at least the bottom half of the lowest octave, if not nearly all that octave, is not easily audible to most listeners, and the listener's position in the building will change how he hears that stop. The cost and trouble to include these stops probably doesn't seem worth their benefit in many installations. Many builders have used electronic supplements for these lowest voices, though the acoustic issues still remain.

    Leave a comment:

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