updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs

[Guest]

New Organ Project
at Washington National Cathedral

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The Great Organ of Washington National Cathedral was built by the Ernest M. Skinner & Son Organ Company and installed in 1938, at which time construction of the Cathedral was approximately one-third complete. As construction continued and the building grew in size, the instrument was expanded a number of times so its musical resources could better serve the growing building. The present instrument consists of 189 ranks and more than 10,650 pipes.

Major construction of the Cathedral—the world’s sixth largest—was completed in 1990. While the organ expansions of the 1950s, sixties, and seventies helped the instrument cope with the ever-growing building, it has become clear in recent years that a single instrument located entirely in the east end of the building is not sufficient to provide the best possible musical support of the Cathedral’s multi-faceted worship.

To that end, the Cathedral is in the midst of a project that will culminate in the installation of two new organs—one in the east end and another in the west gallery. Supporting the liturgical life of the Cathedral is the primary purpose of these instruments. A particular priority is the support of congregational singing, something the current instrument cannot adequately provide in the nave.

Two renowned organ builders have been selected to collaborate on one comprehensive solution to aid the Cathedral’s music and liturgy. Dobson Pipe Organ Builders of Lake City, Iowa has been selected to build an instrument in the east end of the Cathedral. This instrument will support congregational singing and choral accompaniment throughout the Great Choir, crossing, transepts and first few bays of the nave. New encased divisions in both transepts will provide commanding tone for the transepts, crossing, and front of the nave. The legacy of the original 1938 Skinner organ will be preserved by retaining many of its beautiful voices in the new organ.

Casavant Frères of St-Hyacinthe, Québec will build a French-style instrument in the west gallery of the Cathedral, a position that will provide direct organ tone directly down the center access of the building. The west gallery position also allows for a beautiful organ case that will frame the west rose window. This instrument will have a four-manual, mechanical-action console.

A unique feature of this project is that the two organs will be linked so they can be played together from the east end console. The ability to play both organs from a single console will enable the instruments to envelop the congregation in sound evenly, providing excellent support for congregational singing.

If you are interested in supporting this exciting project, please contact Marty Stiffler at (202) 537-5796 or [email protected].

a question:

in an interview with the former organist he mentioned that the new chancel organ was to be 75-90 ranks and cost over 5 mil

in the article on the wnc website copied above it says the present organ is ineffective yet it has under 200 ranks

the new chancel organ will be say half that size and fill the place to 1/3 of the nave

if 186 ranks arent getting out how will say 75-90 do it?

[Austin766]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs

Magic? voodoo? Miracles? it is the age old solution of just throw money at the problem, except they are doing this in a very strange way, If roughly 200 ranks aren't cutting it, how will half that actually pass muster? I honestly don't know, but I think that perhaps the thinking is if one large organ isn't cutting it, two organs of half the size should work, so long as they are put together.

If I was leading this project, I'd have kept the Skinner, and left it alone, well maybe modified the console or gotten a new larger one so that you could control a new set of pipes in the West Gallery, but that's me and my logic.

[Menschenstimme]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs



Good point, Austin, regarding the concept of two smaller (so to speak) organs doing what one large organ may not be able to do.

Our III/72 Schantz has 67 ranks in the loft and 5 ranks in the chancel, to wit:

POSITIV: Gemshorn 8, Gedackt 8' Prestant 4', Gedackt 4', Gemshorn 2', Kleinmixtur II

The Prestant and Kleinmixtur are voiced rather brightly and when you add the full Positiv to the main organ (which is a bitover 100 feet away), it is amazinghow those 5 Positivranks can pullthe full ensemble speaking from the loft forward and create the illusion that the entire organ is everywhere. Ofcourse, the building itself helps make this work; and perhaps, if theacoustics in the building were better/different, the Positiv would not even be necessary. The original intent of the Positiv was to help lead congregational signing. The chancel console is almost directly under the Postiv, which is about 16 feet above the floor.

[Guest]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs



in an email to me the former organist turned airline pilot wrote that the present organ is a ''hodgepodge of different styles and approaches''

my my

must have declined terribly since i played it in 1978,1983 and attended a live recital in the choir stalls in 1985

i didnt notice any evidence of a ''hodgepodge''

to the contrary

that present organ is by far the most cohesive cathedral organ anywhere

a single person voiced/revoiced every single pipe nearly 10,000 in the 1973-76 project

wonder what qualifies an organist; even an excellent one like the previous one to use his idea on organs to tear out and piece meanl an american treasure an american institution for a new fangled gadget built in europe and costing 50k per rank--not per stop--per rank

also

with 2 organs spaced apart by an enormous nave

how can the walker diggies back there simulate what the new casavant will be like

first of all

will the two smaller organs be in tune most of the time

they are not intended for antiphonal responses per se to one another but rather for simultaneous use

have you been in that oven of a church in mid august like i have?

swealtering dc heat to fry an egg with and humidity with which to wipe your brow over and over

to pitch a masterpiece out is unconscienable

then the same ''consultant'' set up a deal in alabama to do likewise to another fine skinner.a-s/moller

using same iowa builder who orders all metal pipe from europe

usa metal pipes must be in short supply or inherently inferior i suppose

i am very committed to usa organ building and i am happy that here at home you can have it your way like at burger king

any style of organ that you want is available here

classic /symphonic/ period focused etc

builders abound and you need not travel far to get what you want and to get it right and get it good

how many american organs are there in germany;holland;france;the uk;australia;austria;switzerland?

[Guest]

last ditch effort to plead for the saving of an american icon

Subj: skinner organ Date: 7/23/2008 4:04:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: Scb44484 To: [email protected]

The cathedral is making an historical error of unimaginable proportions tossing the most outstanding skinner-aeolian-skinner organ into the trash for the latest gadget by an unknown from a cornfield in the midwest--mediocre voicing and metal pipes all from europe.

If you want to add to the present organ go ahead but to toss it out is a foolish decision and your consultants are acting in their own interests and not that of the cathedral's. Get an unbiased opinion . You are a high profile institution and as such you are in the spotlight. What you do is your business but it will reflect either well or not so well.

The present organ can be restored by qualified craftsmen that originally worked on it in the 1970s. Go ahead and add your transept sections and west organ but ''do no harm''. The present organ is unparalleled in its tonal properties and puts to shame many others. It is cohesive and all pipes blend perfectly.You have been sold a bill of goods by people who really do not know nor care about the quality and history of this magnificent pipe organ. Stop before the damage is irreversible.

Anonymous

[Guest]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs

Couldn't one relocate the existing organ to the west end and encase the whole kit and kaboodle thereby focusing and directing the sound down the long nave?

[Menschenstimme]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs



Have you been in that oven of a church in mid august like i have?

The WNC is not air conditiioned?! Perhaps a fraction of that $5 million should be spent elsewhere?

Angels and ministers of grace, defend us!!

[steverequiem]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs



::Sigh:: Hasn't this been hashed over already? Can everyone please just accept that the best of the skinner is being kept while taking out the trash that makes up most of the rest of the organ? I love skinners as much as the next person, but to say that the cathedral organ is somehow this mystical, must be preserved wonder of american organ building is getting a little outlandish. I'd wager to bet it's the most underwhelming 180+ ranks in existence. It doesn't do the job it's required to do. And I bet that most of the people chiming on on what THEY would do have never played or even heard the cathedral organ in action. A little positiv principal chorus in the back isn't going to fix it.

And can we stop the speculation and criticism until there's actually, you know, a released plan, or stop list? Or something other than grudges against members of the organ field?

[Guest]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs



you are proabaly a fine organist

as to organ building

you need to go to organ 101 first

as to trash

be careful

you may go out with it

[Guest]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs

[quote user="steverequiem"]


::Sigh:: Hasn't this been hashed over already? Can everyone please just accept that the best of the skinner is being kept while taking out the trash that makes up most of the rest of the organ? I love skinners as much as the next person, but to say that the cathedral organ is somehow this mystical, must be preserved wonder of american organ building is getting a little outlandish. I'd wager to bet it's the most underwhelming 180+ ranks in existence. It doesn't do the job it's required to do. And I bet that most of the people chiming on on what THEY would do have never played or even heard the cathedral organ in action. A little positiv principal chorus in the back isn't going to fix it.

And can we stop the speculation and criticism until there's actually, you know, a released plan, or stop list? Or something other than grudges against members of the organ field?

[/quote]

trash that makes up most of the rest of the organ-quote

not a very enlightened view

many fine organists of NOTE including paul callaway r dircksen and doug major thought highly of this organ

suddenly some upstart that is confused between airline pilotong and playing the organ shows up off the street and hes an expert

all of the previous opinion is null and void

the magificent skinner is trash

if you had read the thread you would know that i have played it and heard it many times

you are misled by your mentors and your ears

[Guest]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs



Hi steverequiem,

I can entertain your thought about awaiting the new stoplist/revised stoplist? to see the light of day.  However, quite a few years ago I had the privilege of spending some time on the WNC and I love that instrument dearly and I could hardly use the term *trash* for any rank or division of pipes in that organ.  So, I must chime in that a monstrous mistake in re to the mighty Skinner is being perpetrated.

Cheers,

K-Phone 

[Guest]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs



the chancel

seems like whoever dreamed up that configuration that sooner or later organs would leave of from the choir screen and find their way into oposite sides of the chancel

were divided organs expected to fill an entire space

st paul in the uk london has tubas in the 1872 spec that were possibly intended to exit the chancel and creep into the dome and nave area

when wnc was opened in 1932-the chancel that is--a-s installed a 2m w/ 32ft pedal fagotto as a temp organ

by hook or by crook ems got the deal for the big job and not a-s

in 1930 ems sold his stock in the skinner co and bought serlo hall buuilt in 1909 and containing an 1863 boston symphony walcker that was rebuilt 1909 by the methuen organ co which had a shop adjacent to the hall

skinner reluctantly remained on board at a-s till he left jan 1936

he began experimenting and invented a new type harmonic flute in 1936 that went into the wnc organ in 1937-38

of course we dont know if that flute is among the historical material being retained in the dobson organ or if it is possibly among the ''trash'' as mr requiem suggests that most of the wnc organ is

in 1898-1900 father willis returned to st paul and added dome tubas 16-8-4 as well as a new solo section and more unison diapasons to the great

[ incidentally i am starting another thread on mander and st paul]

in 1938 the wnc organist was edgar priest

his assistant was paul callaway

later r w dirksen came along and finally doug major

i have met the latter 3 personally

at no time did any of these great musicians complain that the organ was bad

in the 50s a new console came and the 60s 3 divisions were added as well as a chamade on 27'' that will blow you away

joe whiteford was very aware that the principal sections of the organ needed to be near the crossing

he intended to put a bombarde division where the sowerby swell eventually went

after a-s closed whitefords plan was handed to his associates to complete and by 1976 the organ had been rebuilt

i first heard and played it in 1978

later again 1983

finally a recital by a friend in 1985 sitting in the chancel stalls and blown to smithereenees by full organ plus tuba plus chamade

in 1990 a trivo post horn was added on 15''

later rodgers rebuilt the console and wicks reactioned some divisions

minor tonal changes included revoicing the gt quintade 16 to a bourdon

removing the solo trumpet 16

adding a posaune 16 to the main swell

french reeds to the solo

many cds were made

one by suter the then organist and daniel roth and others

the recorded sound is astounding

if the opinion of all of the forebears is all wrong and a young new guy comes in and tells the cathedral the organ is a failure and they buy it well so be it

but i have a problem

if the REAL issue is the organ not being audible in the nave since when are chancel organs supposed to be in such a huge space

did you know that in 1976 the austrian govt offered to donate a 4m rieger tracker to the west end of wnc and paul callaway said no

english cathedral dont have west end organs

now we learn that a non-usa firm will build a french style tracker back there presumably for helping the cong to sing

if that is the main concern

why a french style organ and why a tracker

if you want a heroic cathedral organ back there shouldnt it be able to contribute to the whole with full organ including a battery of NOT french trompettes but ENGLISH tubas

the real truth is this

little spoiled organist wants the latest toy

so he gets it and oh by the way it can be used to ''envelope'' the worshiper with organ music from all possible directions;the chancel;the crossing; the west gallery and maybe the furnace room

the front organ

add your transept ections

why do you presume to trash a famous american icon

so you can have the latest gadget

the builder selected has a very limited resume

he is not a skinner nor a gdh nor a whiteford

most of his opus' are 2m trackers

just coz he did one cathedral with help from another defunct builder and one symphony with said same help does not qualify him as a world class organ expert

he doesnt fabricate any metal pipes

buys them by the kilo from europa

whats wrong with american made pipes

wnc is the ''national'' church supposedly

the ''peoples'' church

how many usa organs are in canada or europe

this whole wnc affair is nauseating coz a beautiful organ is being destroyed

for that there is no pardon possible

it is an atrocity

anyone involved in it ought to be ashamed

[mpsnknox]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs



sesqui you of all people should understand that trends and fads dictate organ design not some fixed philosophy. That is exactly why the Skinner was rebuilt in the first place. And the rebuild includes a good deal of none American pipe work....

Sitting near or in the Chior is quit exciting when listening to the Organ. But once you get past the transept the organ is almost non existant. Placement and scaling are this organs achilles heal.

Mechanically the organ lacks cohesive design. Chests here... chests there.. chests up in the air...add some here... move that there...it is a hodge podge of chest design and actions. Remeber Wicks D.E.ed the swell division?

As long as no european reeds are used (giesika etc......gag me) and the skinner strings/orchestral reeds are kept Ill be happy.

[Guest]

Re: updated and revised data from wnc website on new organs



And the rebuild includes a good deal of none American pipe work....

really?

how non-american is north easton mass?

all pipes flue and reed were made by thomas h anderson ex a-s head pipe maker till 1966

he is non-american from ireland but mass is an original american colony

the official booklet at wnc explains that

you amaze me

you know a lot but you make assumptions that are wrong

the scaling is generous and the mouth treatment is 2/7 on the primary great chorus and also the choir violas and sowerby violoncelles are like wise 2/7 mouths

the pressure on the great is under 4'' and the sw ch are 6'' and the solo 10'' and the pedal 32 bombarde 20'' and the tuba25'' and the chamade 27'' and the post horn 15''

the acoustics in that room are a factor

i fully expect the new work to be a failure on account of the acoustics plus lack of adequate experience with these on the part of the would-be builder

he buys all metal pipes from giesecke

that should be interesting

hope they arent underscaled with puny 1/4 mouths coz if they are....

the 1970s build saw all pipes new or revoiced dans the chamade

even the wood 32 reed was revoiced

the lack of cohesive design is the work of others after the 70s build namely daffer

since they were the curators the authorities followed their lead

to pitch the organ is to throw out the baby with the bathwater

[Guest]

email i sent to wnc



it was an act of futility but

i felt obligated on account of the belief that american pipe organs are superior to euros

the problem is

new kid is organist

he may or may not have any sway

even if he does have input

the contract is signed so the doom is sealed

the big skinner is consigned to the dobson parts bin

thats what lynn dobson wrote in essence to me in an email

caveat

he is forbidden to disclose that the leftovers r from wnc

i find it interesting that the specs for these 2 new pipe organs r 3 years in coming and still nothing

it is because the consultant fears the input from me and others to the authorities that they r making a huge booboo

so

dont release the specs

and everything will go away

google the words ''assistant voicer'' and u will see the consultant as the ONLY such person

he assists by sitting at the keyboard while jw sweats up in the organ

actually that is not assistant voicing it is tonal finishing

if the scheme is for 75-90 rks up front i am wondering how much old can be retained

2009 is the goal for installation

dont know if the casavant west organ will likewise be installed simultaneously

hope the 2 organs remain in tune so far apart

what about the time delay

what happened to the 3rd planned console the one for the transept

seems like it has gone by the wayside ever before it was even constructed

so where will the east console be

will it be flexible so it can be turned for recitals

only the father knows