Reisner C5 relays

[Guest]

I need about 75 more of these mechanical relays for my all mechanical pipe organ, and had been buying a few
at a time from OSI, but between the last time I ordered and now ,it
seems they have amazingly discontinued making them, and have replaced them with a
small electronic board that fits the same space.

I have about 40 new ones and have been using about 12 very old used ones from the 1930's given to me by a friend to have some ranks on the swell working, the great has no relays. But over time those old relays have started malfunctioning and would stick on at random. I have about 50 more of those but I'm not up to the chore of wiring them all in and then having to replace them one by one as they start malfunctioning.

SInce my relay
boards are already built, wired and setup for those mechanical relays
I don't really want to start mixing in some electronic stuff but...

I bought 6 of the positive output electronic boards and went to test wire one up without success, so I'm not sure right now if my wiring layout is going to work with these or not.

The C5's have the coil to actuate the finger contact bar, a heavy wire to the contact bar, and then the 10 output fingers, I have a positive (+) output from each key on the console to one wire on each coil, the other coil wire to the negative (-) bus wire to the rectifier , the heavy contactor wire to a positive (+) bus wire, and of the 10 output fingers only 4 are used- 1 to each rank.

Using the wiring diagram from OSI and as marked on the boards, it seems pretty simple, it has power + and - terminals and K+ K- terminals from key positive OR key negative, and then terminals from each of the 15 outputs.

Connecting one board up it didn't work at all, and got pretty warm on the resistors, and at $20 a pop it could get expensive test frying a few by switching wires around, but since the connections seem correct I only see the negative wire as being the only one that could be switched around- from the negative power terminal to the K- terminal. The wiring diagram though labels those terminal connections as "key positive, OR, key negative"

The 15 outputs are positive output, and those would go to the electric valves' positive, the valve's negative goes back to the rectifier.

So the valves need a positive input which these boards provide as positive outputs.

Going to try tommorow again, but still thinking of finding mechanical relays.

UPDATE, I found someone who has 65 mechanical relays in good shape so I will buy those and hopefully not bother with this electronic junk.

[Jay999]

Re: Reisner C5 relays



There are several reisner mechanical relays for sale on e-bay right now.

Reason your relays are jamming is because of worn out felt pads under the magnet poles. If you take the relay apart... (be careful to catch the little springs....they tend to want to become airborn when you start seperating the assembly)... you can replace the felt pads with an exact thickness of new felt. Put it back together and it will work again.

Best wishes.....

[Guest]

Re: Reisner C5 relays

[quote user="Jay999"]

There are several reisner mechanical relays for sale on e-bay right now.

Reason your relays are jamming is because of worn out felt pads under the magnet poles. If you take the relay apart... (be careful to catch the little springs....they tend to want to become airborn when you start seperating the assembly)... you can replace the felt pads with an exact thickness of new felt. Put it back together and it will work again.

Best wishes.....

[/quote]

Thanks Jay,

Probably the same guy I said I'd buy the 65 from that he has.

The relays I have are really old, they don't have a name on them just the patent number 1204469 and that dates to 1916, the inventor Victor Middlekauff apparantly resided in Hagarstown MD, so he might have been connected to Moller in some way, though Reisner I think was in the same town and then later bought out.

These don't have felt as you describe, there is a little slip of paper glued in, which on a few have come loose, but even removing the loose paper didn't help. The problem seems to be wear or even a little corrosion between the metal plate and the two pins it rides on and is held in place thru two small holes in it.

The plate is the one with the main wire and the contactor under the 10 fingers. There are 2 springs bearing down on the plate to keep it in the off position.

They were originally mounted base down magnet vertical, while my installation has the base mounted vertically to the inside of the relay box- I was told position is of no importance and doesn't seem to be, these are just real old and came as I remember from a small maybe 4 rank old organ that was in a University or College that was eventually junked, so it likely saw a lot of heavy use by students.

Rather than messing with such old stuff I wanted to buy new, and that was what I did, a few at a time which mostly replaced the 50 old ones I wired up to get SOMETHING working- probably nothing I play that I've found yet uses the top octave anyway and the coupler has made up for any missing.

But now I have the Gt melodia toeboard mostly ready and a doppelflute which will need a toeboard but uses part of the melodia for it's base, so I've been wanting to get some of the Gt wiring connected to relays. The wires have all been in place from the console for a long time awaiting relays and building the chests. I couldnt decide on the configuration for the chest(s) so I put it off, now I decided the 4 original ranks on the Gt will all go on one chest (same for the swell eventually) and plan to build that one real soon and install the melodia to start with.

The doppelflue will get it's own little chest that will mount on the wall, I salvaged it from another organ but it was missing 17 pipes, the 17 I have already built replacements for using the identical lumber the original set was made from by cutting up some water damaged pedal bourdons, they will need stoppers and voicing the caps.

As an aside, messing with the electronic relay, I did manage to get it to function properly, but the wiring diagram that was provided with these is totally different and may in fact be the wrong one.

The ONLY way it would work with the key and not stay on continuously, or not work at all, was to put the positive lead from the rectifier bus to the (+) power terminal, and then the key lead which is positive (+) when pressed was attached to another part on the board that isn't even mentioned in the wiring diagram, the part is numbered as; 18P06P and is a MOSFET transistor, it looks similar to the one here but has a metal tab with a hole in it which on other boards I've seen would likely have a screw there;

http://www.newark.com/98K0709/supplier-direct-ship/product.us0?sku=infineon-spd18p06p

On the board this is labeled Q1 and aphoto of the board is on the OSI web site in the electrical section 5 of their PDF catalogue, page 11, pretty clear to see what it looks like.

[Jay999]

Re: Reisner C5 relays



I understand....well, I love old mechanical relays because I'm from that era. If something goes awry, I can look at the stuff and see what's wrong. Of course, I love and appreciate solid state equipment too. Especially when it's working, and coupled to a big installation. It's amazing how small the solid state equipment is, and how little room it takes up.

Anyway, if your shorting plates are fussy about moving, or ciphering, ...(due to corrosion)...try squirting a little WD-40 into a small container, then with a tooth pick, apply a few small drops of the lubricant right on the pivots, where those hold down springs are. If you work that electrically several times, it may clear up the friction. I've had the same trouble with Reisner (well, actually, just about everybodys) electro mechanical valves sticking, due to dryness in the pivot axle, or some corrosion. Usually, a little lubrication to the joint with WD-40 will get it going again, just fine.

I enjoyed reading your research into the Reisner company, and that inventor...Victor Middlekauff. It's interesting how Moller and Reisner worked side by side for so many years....yet Moller always "claimed" that they made their own electrical stuff. The two businesses stood across the street from each other, and both houses closed their doors within just a few years of each other.

Sounds like you're pretty clever in reworking wood pipes to make them match up to other pipes. Go for it...and have fun.

[Guest]

Re: Reisner C5 relays

[quote user="Jay999"]

I understand....well, I love old mechanical relays because I'm from that era. If something goes awry, I can look at the stuff and see what's wrong. [/quote]

Plus when the relay board is in the basement and the organ upstairs, its real handy to be able to manually operate the relay sometimes.

Anyway, if your shorting plates are fussy about moving, or ciphering, ...(due to corrosion)...try squirting a little WD-40 into a small container, then with a tooth pick, apply a few small drops of the lubricant right on the pivots, where those hold down springs are. If you work that electrically several times, it may clear up the friction. I've had the same trouble with Reisner (well, actually, just about everybodys) electro mechanical valves sticking, due to dryness in the pivot axle, or some corrosion. Usually, a little lubrication to the joint with WD-40 will get it going again, just fine.

Yeah that can help, done the WD40 thing, that didn't seem to really do it but then I only squirted some on the pivot post area, wierd thing is I can manipuate the contact manually every which way and never get it stuck, wiggle it around, up and down, some WD40, go up stairs, hit that key and it's relay gets stuck- maddening!

Go downstairs, just barely touch the contact plate, it falls properly in position, it's like it gets wedged on those posts. The little paper I mentioned is actually thin leather- my bad.

Hopefully the newer ones I am buying will work better, still don't have enough even with those but with the 6 electronic boards I bought I would, so I'll just hook those up to the 6 top notes which would rarely get used anyway.

I enjoyed reading your research into the Reisner company, and that inventor...Victor Middlekauff. It's interesting how Moller and Reisner worked side by side for so many years....yet Moller always "claimed" that they made their own electrical stuff. The two businesses stood across the street from each other, and both houses closed their doors within just a few years of each other.

Sounds like you're pretty clever in reworking wood pipes to make them match up to other pipes. Go for it...and have fun.

Well, Moller's story was an amazing one of starting from nothing and building up a huge successful business, he was a very busy very smart innovative man, it was his heirs who destroyed the business along with the economic downturn. If you read his story he had a full plate and a hand in many things- organs, car building, inventing, patents, on the board of the electric co-op, President or somesuch of the local bank, raised family and much more, this was a fellow who never slept.

He was successful in many ways, his organ business did well for him because he standardized components to stock designs, and rolled affordable reasonably decent organs and parts off an assembly-line style system that was not unlike Ford's system. So he had employees who built the same components, the pipe makers maybe built 50 ranks of 16' bourdons all to the same specs, and once jigs and everything were set up to do a run of something, the per unit cost dropped.

It was an excellent business model, but changing times and economy were not kind and there was less demand for small organs of 12 or 15 ranks or less, and then electronic organs I guess were coming on line as well.

The Moller console I have is one of his best quality units, it's all solid walnut with some cherry inserts, well built and I've never seen one like it. The rail under the Gt keyboard has pencilled in the name/city of a different church 1500 miles away than it came from, while the terminal board had the other church name/location on it, so with the stock market crash this console was probably originally meant for that Illinois church but wound up on Long Island instead.

I have the original 1930 contract paper/spec sheet, so the organ wasn't moved it was installed there originally.

Yeah wood pipes are not difficult to build, just time consuming, but it was nice to be able to use the same lumber.

[Jay999]

Re: Reisner C5 relays



Since you have new relay replacements coming...this will just be a side note. By all means, do replace the old relays with the newer ones you have coming.

Sidenote; Your relay magnet poles have a small amount of magnetism left over, after the circuit turns off in the coils that are wrapped around the magnet. This is called "residual magnetism". The small piece of leather in your old relays, as well as later models that had felt, will wear down on the magnet poles, causing the shorting plateto get too close to the magnet poles, and consequently, continue to be attracted to the left over magnetism in the magnet. It only takes a gentle push of the finger to give the shorting plate enough energy to return to the off position, thanks to the added push built into those little springs on the sides of the plates.

If you want to continue using your reisners, you can rebuild them yourself, or have Organ Supply Industries rebuild them for you. From my own past experience, the little springs are the real "witch" in the rebuilding process. They are very tiny, very light weight, and very powerful. They want to jump off the relay while you're taking them apart, and they want to jump off while you are trying to reassemble the relay. It's been quite a few years ago since I had my last batch of reisners rebuilt at Organ Supply Industries...so I'm not sure if they still offer rebuilding....check it out, if you're interested. It's worth the price to have them redone....instead of the tediousness of trying to do them yourself.

[Guest]

Re: Reisner C5 relays

[quote user="Jay999"]

Since you have new relay replacements coming...this will just be a side note. By all means, do replace the old relays with the newer ones you have coming.

Sidenote; Your relay magnet poles have a small amount of magnetism left over, after the circuit turns off in the coils that are wrapped around the magnet. This is called "residual magnetism". The small piece of leather in your old relays, as well as later models that had felt, will wear down on the magnet poles, causing the shorting plateto get too close to the magnet poles, and consequently, continue to be attracted to the left over magnetism in the magnet. It only takes a gentle push of the finger to give the shorting plate enough energy to return to the off position, thanks to the added push built into those little springs on the sides of the plates.[/quote]

Good observation, I hadn't considered there may be some residual magnetism along with that wear.

If you want to continue using your reisners, you can rebuild them yourself, or have Organ Supply Industries rebuild them for you. From my own past experience, the little springs are the real "witch" in the rebuilding process. They are very tiny, very light weight, and very powerful. They want to jump off the relay while you're taking them apart, and they want to jump off while you are trying to reassemble the relay. It's been quite a few years ago since I had my last batch of reisners rebuilt at Organ Supply Industries...so I'm not sure if they still offer rebuilding....check it out, if you're interested. It's worth the price to have them redone....instead of the tediousness of trying to do them yourself.

I'm familiar with their construction, I have taken some apart as well as replaced a few finger contacts which OSI did sell as a repair part, at least while they still produced the mechanical relays, but according to the engineer date on the drawing of their electronic relay replacement, they discontinued those mechanical ones about 3 or 4 years ago.

As Peterson said in an email recently, "no one" uses these old relays any more, the trend is towards all digital/electronic control interface, midi etc.

As these are a proprietary kind of design patented by Reisner, their discontinuance and their replacement with electronics will basically mean they and their parts will no longer be available except used as salvage when they are replaced by newer components.

SInce the electronic replacements are only $20 brand new - about the same price the mechanical ones were, it's seriously a case today for churches having to call in a technician- of just buying the boards and not messing with the old stuff, it takes less time to solder in the few wires than rebuilding the old ones, and at $100+ an hour plus mileage, time is money!

My objection to switching over is my relay board was already laid out and all for the mechanical ones and I wanted to keep it all consistant and not mix and match stuff, the electronic ones are also I understand FASTER since there is no lag or delay, if there was much of a difference in that then it could become a big problem on an organ where the pipes on the old stuff start speaking later than the pipes on the new boards, though I don't know the lag would be that large as to even notice that, the potential is there.

So it's probably better to go with one, OR the other, for all 122 keys. Buying 122 relays @ $20 each adds up to a fair amount of change- $2500, but for $130 and the used ones that works for me.

It's good that you posted the above information whch will stay here for the new or novice to troubleshoot old relays and so forth, but I should have mentioned early on that I am in the organ building industry over ten years, I'm perfectly capable of doing the work required, including rebuilding all components, windchests, reservoirs, wind systems, constructing wood pipes, tuning, wiring etc etc, only thing I can't do is voice new pipes or make/solder metal ones. I only need OSI or Peterson for parts such as these, electric valves and so forth.

WHile I mention valves, any preference for OSI valves v/s Peterson? I noted a while back the Peterson valves seem to be slightly heavier on the amps for a given pallet size and wind pressure than the same size OSI valve. SInce I have a box full of probably 400 Peterson valves all in good shape and fairly new, I will probably stick to Peterson for the larger ones I'll need.

All 400 or so will need new felt/leather pallets and as I remember the largest size is only around 1", so they will probably work fine for C25 and up or thereabouts.

I will still need to buy the rest I'll need, remember- I'm replacing an 8 rank pitman chest, some stops with 73 notes per rank, thus the need for the relays too- the pitman had primaries and all that stuff, and at some point in it's history some tech guy obviously took a circular saw, sawz all or jig saw and cut one of the primary board assemblies down it's entire length through the pouches as I recall, cut all of the wires and removed the assembly, did some repairs and then reglued that back with not very good success I might add.

I never figured out what that was about, he had replaced maybe half the pouches in that assembly but left the rest- pretty foolish doing all that work and replacing only half the leather.

Anyway that was the beginning of the end of the pitman chest.

Another issue is, with their size and weight, they were fine when new, but once you start moving them around and "torquing" them it usually starts leaks, splits, jams and so on, as complex as they are they are best left alone if they function properly, replaced if they don't.

[Jay999]

Re: Reisner C5 relays



Yes, I agree. If we are talking about conserving old reisners for a church, or institution, that's certainly not the way to go. I talked about conserving the old relays specifically from a hobby type application. So many of our fellow forum members are asking questions about how to repair an old component for the joy of having it perform in their home. So that's where my mind was when talking about the rebuilding of these old relays.

As far as electro-mechanical valves goes, who's the better...I think that's a matter of choice, based on price, ease of installation, performance characteristics vs. wind pressures. I don't do a lot of electro mechanical work...I've justfinished a job last year that probably used more electro mechanical valves in that one instrument, than all the others I've done over my years in the business, put together! I have seen excellent results with both OSI and Peterson valves. From my own choices, I'd be looking atboth magnets with an eye toward performance characteristics, and prices.

I've heard fellow technicians and builders talk "horrow stories" about how one brand of valve seizes up around the pivot axel....but the story has been told about both brands. In regard to that kind of seizure....I think there is probably a lot of untold information...like how much sweating isa chest exposed to during winter conditions...how much dirt is blown into the chest by a blower in a dirty environment...etc. etc. I've been working on organs for over 50 years....and in all that time, I've probably encountered seven or eight seized up magnets. So it's no big thing.

Regards your chest...it's unfortunate to see that kind of brutilizing going on. However, if you turn it upside down for installing those valves, that would be a good time to clean up as much of the "disrespect" as you can. With electro mechanical valves, one of the best favors you can do for yourself is to replace the bung screws with hanger bolts and wing nuts. You will find yourself under the chest quite often, dropping bungs and correcting the balance between the magnet poles and the armatures....tweeking dead notes. Keepa plastic butter bowl handy to catch the wing nuts as you remove the bungs. Best wishes.

[Guest]

Re: Reisner C5 relays

[quote user="Jay999"]

Yes, I agree. If we are talking about conserving old reisners for a church, or institution, that's certainly not the way to go. I talked about conserving the old relays specifically from a hobby type application. So many of our fellow forum members are asking questions about how to repair an old component for the joy of having it perform in their home. So that's where my mind was when talking about the rebuilding of these old relays.

[/quote]

Yes of course, for those of us who don't have $500,000 for a brand new custom built pipe organ and either assemble something from salvaged parts, or buy a defunct throw-away to rebuild over time as a hobby- these relays are perfect. For the most part a home hobby organ is not going to be played like one in a University music dept or busy church, there isn't going to be the wear and tear nor the demand for perfect functioning 100% of the time.

Personally, I do not like electronic components or midi/digital add-ons, that is why my console is restored to run on it's original wind system and what I like to call automotive AM radio style presets instead of gutted as seems to be typical of church organists wanting midi and digital controls with 12,365 levels of memory and all that, fake "tracker touch" added to the keyboards, lighted tabs etc

Remember the old AM car radios where you had to pull one of the buttons out to select that station as a preset/memory? same kind of a concept with the 1930 Moller thumb pistons and setting the tabs in a similar way, I like that.

As far as electro-mechanical valves goes, who's the better...I think that's a matter of choice, based on

I've heard fellow technicians and builders talk "horror stories" about how one brand of valve seizes up around the pivot axel....but the story has been told about both brands. In regard to that kind of seizure....I think there is probably a lot of untold information...like how much sweating isa chest exposed to during winter conditions...how much dirt is blown

All mechanical devices fail at some point, I don't see the valves themselves failing- as simple as they are there is almost nothing to go wrong, you probably ran into far more burnt/dirty contacts, bad soldering on wires that came loose, or mice chewed wiring as causes for a valve not working than the valve itself failing.

I hear from inside and know we use exclusively... that the Matters valves are probably the best and quietest, but he doesnt have a web site or on-line connections, and from what I hear- to order from them is a pain in the rear- can't reach them on the phone, have to fax it in or some such.

Regards your chest...it's unfortunate to see that kind of brutilizing going on. However, if you turn it upside down for installing those valves, that would be a good time to clean up as much of the "disrespect" as you can. With electro mechanical valves, one of the best favors you can do for yourself is to replace the bung screws with hanger bolts and wing nuts. You will find yourself under the chest quite often, dropping bungs and correcting the balance between the magnet poles and the armatures....tweeking dead notes. Keepa plastic butter bowl handy to catch the wing nuts as you remove the bungs. Best wishes.

Actually that pitman chest was discarded some 10 years ago, it also had an end board that pulled loose and split, the chest alone was over 500# and 9 feet long, 6 feet wide. Installing electric valves inside that wouldnt have worked well- the pouch boards all had grooves cut in the undersides of the toeboards for them, those grooves and other things would have had to have been filled, it was just totally unworkable as was having 8 ranks all on one huge chest which would be difficult to get at pipes in the middle without walkboards and so on.

I had decided way back then to just build new chests and toeboards and had started on a 2 rank chest and had intended to just build 4 of those- easy to build, easy to install, lightweight, plenty of room to tune/work on them, but now that I will be going back to working on it again I decided I will gain more space for the other pipes if I stick to two 4 rank chests and one walkway between.

Reconfiguring the layout of the pipes on toeboards saves a foot of length- the Moller pitman chest wasted a lot of space on the top couple of octaves due to the space requirements of the pouch boards inside. That foot of savings will mean the chests can fit in their room in a way I can walk around the trebel end too.

That will also allow space on the floor for the Kilgen 16' manual bourdon I salvaged.

They will have bottom bungs, and I have used on the other chest I built a few years ago- threaded studs and wing nuts, though one can buy from Laukhuff and others- heavy nickel plated bung latches, if you haven't seen those they go on top and bottom of the bung which can be 1/2" or more apply ply, and flat pieces of oak with a double bevel is screwed to the outside face of the bung with one screw each so they pivot in their centers and catch/tighter under those latches.

Gasketing is accomplished nicely with Vilidon strips glued to the inside perimeter of the bung.

Would be nice to have bungs on the sides of the chests but it would be too difficult to access valves in the back and the chest would have to be deeper.

I have a set of Liberty chimes that might now also fit in that room, the pneumatic operated mechanism for it needs rebuiding and new felt. It is also quite large, deep, and heavy which is a drawback, so I'm not certain I will use it, if it doesnt fit in that room there's no other location it will