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Interesting Celeste ideas...

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  • Interesting Celeste ideas...



    What do you thinkwould happen if you had a 3 or 4 rank Voix Céleste voice? Are there any organs out there with compound stops such as this? My guess is that as you add more and more ranks, the soundpossibly undulates more.




    And what about a reed celeste stop? I don't know if these would actually work or even be necessary, although something like a Vox Humana celeste might be interesting for an Echo division.




    Jezza


  • #2
    Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...



    west point has a 5 rank unison celeste of dulciana tone tuned to u-#-##-b-bb




    yale has a 3 rk celeste in the orchestral as viole dorchestre 8 u-#-##




    wanamaker has six violins with ea having unison and sharp and flat celestes




    also same with six muted violins as above




    celloes




    dulcianas etc



    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...

      On some large organs you might see a stop called "String Organ". Sometimes this controls a multi-rank celeste, or it might control a division with individually-selectable ranks.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...



        [quote user="soubasse32"]On some large organs you might see a stop called "String Organ". Sometimes this controls a multi-rank celeste, or it might control a division with individually-selectable ranks.[/quote]




        Besides the Wanamaker organ, can you name some other organs with this? I would be interested in knowing more about them and maybe trying to find recordings of the organs.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...

          I'm thousands of miles away from my usual resources, so must rely on my brain (such as it is).

          I'm thinking of the Aeolian at Duke University, the Skinners at Woolsey Hall (Yale), East Liberty Pres (Pittsburgh), and perhaps also at Public Hall in Cleveland. Perhaps the Skinner/Mander at Princeton too...?

          If you type "string organ" in double quotes you should be able to turn up quite a few specifications on Google, I'd think.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...

            [quote user="diaphone32"]


            What do you thinkwould happen if you had a 3 or 4 rank Voix Céleste voice? Are there any organs out there with compound stops such as this? My guess is that as you add more and more ranks, the soundpossibly undulates more.[/quote]




            Several large theatre organs have IV rank Violes, with each rank tuned slightly away from the others, to give the effect of the string section of an orchestra. The organ at Ocean Gove, New Jersey, has a number of string celestes which, when played together, give quite an effective sound.




            [quote user="diaphone32"] And what about a reed celeste stop? I don't know if these would actually work or even be necessary, although something like a Vox Humana celeste might be interesting for an Echo division.




            Jezza




            [/quote]




            Maybe not the quite same thing, but, again, several large theatre organs have two or even four Vox Humanas, each with its own tremulant, and possible with the 4' Vox Humanas on also, can give the effect of a choir of human voices.


            Mike

            My home organ is a Theatre III with an MDS II MIDI Expander.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...



              For me....I've never seen a celeste with more than three ranks. One unison, one sharp, one flat. I tune on this stop twice a year. It is quite intense...as it is made up of narrow scaled pipes. I tune the sharp rank in the usual celeste manner. Then I tune the flat rank so it will double beat against the sharp rank. What you wind up with is a beat pattern something like this....Wah, wa.wa Wah, wa.wa Wah, wa.wa Wah, wa.wa Wah, wa.wa Wah, wa.wa...... Name of the stop is 8' Voix Celeste III. It is quite lovely to hear...but it's a witch to tune correctly!




              Every theatre organ celeste I have ever played, always had a prime rank, and a celeste rank. Granted, organ tuners can get carried away with these, and tune the multiple sets of strings in all kinds of beat patterns...but I seriously think that theatre organs almost always had the one prime, and one celeste rank to make up a particular set. Usually, these are in ascending, or decliningvolume sets....Gamba, Cello, Violin, Viola, Dulciana....and my favorite accompanyment set....Gemshorn. Theatre organs also have Flute celestes.




              Vox Humanas on a theatre organ should always be in tune. They have to play along with so many other stops, in varying combinations. If you have heard voxes on a theatre organ, and they were celesting...well, yes....they would sound pretty that way...but that is not what they were made to do. The multiple sets of Vox Humana that are found on the Wanamaker organ ARE meant to celeste, as that is the job they were intended for.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...

                [quote user="sesquialtera16"]


                west point has a 5 rank unison celeste of dulciana tone tuned to u-#-##-b-bb




                yale has a 3 rk celeste in the orchestral as viole dorchestre 8 u-#-##




                wanamaker has six violins with ea having unison and sharp and flat celestes




                also same with six muted violins as above




                celloes




                dulcianas etc






                [/quote]





                Wanamaker has repitched all of its Flat strings to be a tad bit sharper than the first celeste it is paried with.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...



                  Correction to my earlier comment about theatre organ vox humana celestes.




                  It was a standard feature on Kimball organs to have a Vox Humana and a Vox Humana Celeste. The Radio City organ lists one Vox Humana for (presumably) the big Tibia Clausa, and a second Vox Humana, followed by (II), indicating a compound stop of 2 ranks. (Radio City is a Wurlitzer, but it is built to a Kimball specification.) Does anybody have the spec for the Atlantic City Ballroom organ? I am told that it is a sister organ to Radio City.




                  The only Kimball theatre organ I have ever played in concert only had an independent Vox on the big Tibia, and another independent Vox for the "tibia minor". No double, celesting set on that organ.




                  However, I take care of a Kimball that was originally a theatre organ, then modified to be a church organ. On that organ is a special chest that originally held two vox humana sets, side by side. I completely forgot about that...I just tune and tune, and forget about the history behind it.




                  Many apologies if I mislead...just goes to show how stupid some self proclaimed "expert" can be.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...



                    The Vox Humana is a short resonator reed like a baroque reed. It stays in exact tune for only a little while.



                    The Vox thus is its own celeste. Used in combination with the string, with or without tremulant, it vreats a somewhat assertive string celeste sound due to the different harmonic structure and the always out of tuneness of the vox.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...



                      Curtis organ at Irvine Auditorium, University of Penn in Philadelphia (sounds beautifull)



                      Skinner organ, Old South church in Boston

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...

                        Allen organs with "celeste tuning" and a card reader let you try out various reed celestes. I never found anything that I thought useful.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...



                          [quote user="diaphone32"] What do you thinkwould happen if you had a 3 or 4 rank Voix Céleste voice? Are there any organs out there with compound stops such as this? My guess is that as you add more and more ranks, the soundpossibly undulates more.[/quote]




                          I would assume that this has been attempted over the centuries; but not an idea that is about to take the organ world by storm!




                          [quote user="diaphone32"]And what about a reed celeste stop? I don't know if these would actually work or even be necessary, although something like a Vox Humana celeste might be interesting for an Echo division. [/quote]




                          I've tried stuff like this; and while sort of momentaryfunnovelty; I don't believe such novelties have any place inanykind of seriousmusical venue. I believe that the best you can do with co-existent reeds, is to ever-so-slightly tune them just a tad wet in the order of about onebeat per 1.5 to 3seconds. No?

                          2008: Phoenix III/44

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...



                            [quote user="diaphone32"]And what about a reed celeste stop? I don't know if these would actually work or even be necessary, although something like a Vox Humana celeste might be interesting for an Echo division.[/quote]Celestes tend to work best when they are soft; a slight out-of-tuneness can create a spine-tingling effect with a quiet string stop. With increasingly louder stops,any out-of-tuneness starts to become annoying; itceases being a pleasant 'effect' and starts to call attention to itself as being... out of tune. [:)]




                            While it is common for out-of-tune reeds to naturally celeste with each other, a carefully-regulated reed celeste would be quite difficult to implement. If you have two reed pipes at unison pitch the softer one will pull towards the pitch of the louder one. You can bypass this byfurther detuning one of the pipes, but the effect would not be pleasant at all.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Interesting Celeste ideas...



                              [quote user="Clarion"][quote user="diaphone32"] What do you thinkwould happen if you had a 3 or 4 rank Voix Céleste voice? Are there any organs out there with compound stops such as this? My guess is that as you add more and more ranks, the soundpossibly undulates more.[/quote]I would assume that this has been attempted over the centuries; but not an idea that is about to take the organ world by storm![/quote]... If only because it is such an expensive way to acheive a goal. However the effect is quite sumptuous.




                              These stops are not at all uncommon, if youlook at very large, deluxe instruments from the mid-20th century. In a few weeks I'll be performing on a Kimball with a three-rank celeste. It sounds pretty good. [8-|]

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