Haskelling a bourdon

[light_Bulb]

I'm rebuilding an organ at home, and have two complete nearly-identical 16' wooden bourdons. I'm wondering whether there's something useful that I can do with the second set, and what I was thinking was experimenting with removing the stoppers and adding inner tubes to make them open Haskelled pipes. I've seen examples of wooden pipes with cylindrical Haskell tubes, so assume it can be done.
My guess is that this will make the pipe more string-toned, and hence make it more useful then having two otherwise identical bourdons. I'm hoping that changes to the mouths wouldn't be required, or at least wouldn't need to be extensive given that the pitches of the pipes wouldn't change. The set I'm planning on modifying have straight upper lips.

Has anyone got any thoughts on this?

[myorgan]

My first recommendation is to review The Art of Organ Building by George Ashdown Audsley: https://archive.org/details/artoforganbuildi00auds
My second recommendation is to visit the Dictionary of Organ Stops: http://www.organstops.org/_apps/HaskellBasses.html

Michael

[light_Bulb]

Hi Michael,

I have both of these books, and am familiar with the dictionary of organ stops. I'm aware of much of the relevant theory, but I'm also aware that theory and practice often differ, so I'm hoping for some thoughts from people who have experience in this.
Or, if my idea is without merit, a suggestion of what I can do with the second set of Bourdons.

[aeolian pat]

Remember that you must use the same correct scale, mouth and cut-up for your Haskell pipe as you would for the full length pipe. you can't start with a small scale 8' stopped diapason and think you will end up with a 16 food pedal open stop.

[Larason2]

I suppose it's doable, but it would be a pretty challenging project! One problem is that the cut up probably needs to be a lot lower for the haskelled pipe, and I would assume a smaller mouth width wise as well. You may need to modify the mouth with beards and/or flaps to get a stable note. They will probably need a bit higher pressure than they had before to make sure the transient isn't too long, and if the toe hole has been modified you might need to reverse the previous changes to ensure it's not under winded. As Aeolian Pat says, string toned pipes are different lengths than flute toned pipes for the same note, so you may have to make some extra pipes to get a full register. I seem to recall string pipes are longer than their flute counterparts, so that would entail building more of the longest pipes! The hardest part though is going to be getting a lower cut up out of a higher one! If it's wood you can add a panel to the cut up, but if it's metal you're going to have a hard time soldering a new metal sheet where the old one was cut away. Definitely not a weekend project!

[Larason2]

Alternatives to the bourdon are tricky, for the same reasons as above. The more different you want the sound to be, the more you have to modify the pipe. Maybe the easiest will be a loud bourdon vs. soft bourdon.

[SJV]

Perhaps you could wind it differently? Lower wind pressure on the one to have a sort of Lieblich bourdon.

[myorgan]

I seem to recall string pipes are longer than their flute counterparts, so that would entail building more of the longest pipes!

As Larason2 said, most (if not all) String pipes are longer and thinner than their Flute counterparts.

I see Larason beat me to it, but I know some Bourdon pipes have been altered to be a Lieblich Gedackt 16', which is essentially a softer Bourdon. My worry would be that the wind stream and/or tone would not be stable enough or have quick enough speech to be useful. Altering a stopped wooden pipe, in my opinion, wouldn't be a feasible project. Perhaps you could trade the rank for another?

Not to sidetrack the thread, but how/why did the ubiquitous Bourdon become so commonplace vs. other similar ranks?

Michael

[aeolian pat]

less letters than Grosser Lieblich Gedacktbass on the knob.

[Leisesturm]

Not to sidetrack the thread, but how/why did the ubiquitous Bourdon become so commonplace vs. other similar ranks?

Other similar ranks? You mean like Stopped Diapasons, Rohr Flutes, etc.? They are common too. But at 16' you don't want 'character' you just want the foundation. The Bourdon can serve as the bass for almost anything and most are (ab)used that way since they also save on the need for height which is their single greatest attribute.

[aeolian pat]

One small caveat, don't confuse diameter with circumference when doing your calculations.

[light_Bulb]

Thanks all for your feedback.
I've already got a soft 16" bourdon, and two very similar large scale bourdons, so simply using the rank as-is is going to be a redundant use of space. I have a strong desire for a bass string, hence why I wanted to investigate this.

The bourdons are wood, and I have sufficient woodworking capabilities to modify the pipes. I could make brand new haskelled string pipes, but if this results in less work, then I'd like to investigate this option.

[myorgan]

The bourdons are wood, and I have sufficient woodworking capabilities to modify the pipes. I could make brand new haskelled string pipes, but if this results in less work, then I'd like to investigate this option.

I guess my concern would be if your skills are good enough to add wood to the upper lip of a pipe to change the cut-up for the pipe to speak on a lower pressure. Changing the width of the mouth is much easier than changing the lip.

The string pipe would (I believe) have more upper frequency development than a wood pipe could afford. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Basically, is the effort worth the anticipated result? Maybe you just enjoy a good challenge??

Michael

[aeolian pat]

You must change the depth and width of a Bourdon to make a string. You must also increase its length. you will have to do this to all 32 notes of the rank.. You will have to make lower and upper lips, beards and blocks and feet.with valves. you will then need to make your compensating tubes. You should not expect to be successful at lengthening pipes if you are near a node.
I wish you luck. I would suggest you find a builder and ask him to share data with you. Several have used Haskell pipes in newer concert hall organs for the 32 foot octave. You will need a great deal of help.

Pat

[light_Bulb]

Thanks all for the feedback. Haskelling a bourdon was just my suggestion with what I could do with the spare rank. Does anyone have any other ideas?

[myorgan]

Does anyone have any other ideas?

What aeolian pat pat said above.

Michael

[Larason2]

As for what else you could do with the pipes, it would be helpful to know what other ranks you have. If you have the ability to make other pipes, for instance you could make an 8' or 32' bourdon out of it for the pedal. 32' might not be practical, but an 8' could be very useful if you don't have something like it already in the pedal. It could also be the bottom pipes for a 16' flute added to one of your manuals.

Thinking about it some more, it would probably be easier to make a successful Haskelled 16' rank from scratch than to try to convert an existing Bourdon, because then you would have more control over the scaling. Pedal stops usually benefit from being a bit broader tone, even if they are strings, and you're going to have trouble getting a Haskelled 16' Bourdon that isn't too thin, because of the (relatively) narrow scale. Strings need a lot of modification to the mouth to get a good, stable tone, and it's easier to start with the right dimensions from scratch than to try to modify a pipe that already has a huge mouth. If you read the encyclopedia of organs stops, it talks about how these pipes are difficult to voice, and that has entirely to do with what you do at the mouth:

http://www.organstops.org/_apps/HaskellBasses.html

If you see the diagram by Bonavia-Hunt of the Haskell/Estey pipe there, you see that the pipe has a super small mouth with a huge cylinder obstructing it. They actually didn't insert anything, but built in a chamber using a board down the middle of the pipe body, which can be tuned using the sliding contraption they developed. The one side of the pipe is actually completely open. This is actually a much more practical design than just inserting a tube from the top, as scaling can be more precisely controlled (increasing one scale doesn't decrease the other, the scale of both sections are equal by design), the tuning would be easier and more stable (since you don't have a heavy tube potentially pulling the cap down), and you don't have the problem of the inserted tube potentially falling in.

[myorgan]

Excellent sleuthing there, Larason!

I had forgotten about the split resonator as a possibility. The contraption used to restrict the mouth size vertically is ingenious. I would think also rigging a restriction on each side of the mouth would work as well, if it could made to travel vertically as well, to account for the moving upper lip.

Another option would be to use the rank, unstopped as an open wood on a smaller organ, or as stated before, on a Swell division.

Great options, @Larason2.

Michael