Do pipe organs have “foldback”?

[snacks]

Forgive the Hammond terminology, but that’s my frame of reference here. I’ve spent very little time at real pipe organ consoles. Anyway, I was wondering if pipe ranks generally stop at about 73 pipes, especially high pitched ones. If your organ has a 1’ stop, does it simply run out at the highest pitch, or does it repeat the tones? What about the lowest octave of the manuals on a 16’ rank? Does this differ from organ to organ, or is it pretty standard?

[Larason2]

The shortest pipe that will reliably produce a tone is about one inch long, so ranks do "break back" as they call it in pipe organ terminology. I most schools, the highest rank that won't have to break back is a 2' rank, anything higher does. In Italy though, they break back if a pipe is going to be shorter than about 3 inches, so they break back earlier. It's pretty rare to repeat pitches at the bottom of the keyboard or pedalboard, usually they are just omitted and those notes have to be provided by another rank. It does happen though, it's just quite rare.

[johnroper100]

The shortest pipe that will reliably produce a tone is about one inch long, so ranks do "break back" as they call it in pipe organ terminology. I most schools, the highest rank that won't have to break back is a 2' rank, anything higher does. In Italy though, they break back if a pipe is going to be shorter than about 3 inches, so they break back earlier. It's pretty rare to repeat pitches at the bottom of the keyboard or pedalboard, usually they are just omitted and those notes have to be provided by another rank. It does happen though, it's just quite rare.

not necessarily true, straight ranks such as 1’ do exist without break back. Breaking back is most often found in mixtures, not necessarily straight organ ranks. However, that being said, one common way of getting around the size issue is to make certain octaves of a rank harmonic (double length and overblow) which achieves the same pitch with a longer pipe.

[Larason2]

Aha, on the Salisbury Willis, the 1 3/5' Tierce on the Choir breaks back for the last couple notes. That's the original compass, so it must be original. Also, the 1' piccolo on the Notre Dame de Metz breaks back at high C (that stop isn't original, but the additions were made based on extant examples). Those were the first two organs I examined, I'll keep reporting back if I find more!

[johnroper100]

Are these hauptwerk examples you’re talking about? Or are you getting the information from the actual specification of these instruments?

[johnroper100]

Notre Dame organ has a break back only in hauptwerk because the sample set creator ran out of samples and decided to break back rather than repitch some samples, not because that’s what the builder did.

[Larason2]

They are Hauptwerk, all sample sets I own. I played the top of the compass using my console. The specification is useless, as they never tell you that single ranks like this break back, even though they do.

I've found a few more:
Adlington hall - Nineteenth (2 2/3) and Twenty second (1')
Immanuel presbyterian: Schlicker: Larigot 1 1/3. EM Skinner, Larigot 1 1/3 and Tierce 1 3/5 on Choir.
Concordia University Zhang concert hall: Sifflote 1 and Larigot 1 1/3
Giubasco: Larigot 1 1/3
Mary the virgin Budapest - Sifflote 1' and Oberton 1 1/7'

It may not be fair to include Italian organs, but here are some:
St Carlo, Brescia - five ranks break back, lowest pitch being the Quinta Decima (Fifteenth, 2’)
Budapest Farkasret Italian organ - starting XIX (Nineteenth, 2 2/3), most of the same ranks as St. Carlo.

Also, in Spanish organs, the reeds break back at middle C#.

So it turns out that even though overall I'm right, it's actually pretty common for 1' and high pitched mutation stops to break back, even in the modern era. Honestly, after hearing quite a few organs that didn't break back, I'm glad the ones that did break back decided to do it. Those micro harmonic pipes at the very top squeak a lot, and emit so little sound they are practically useless. It is true that in the modern era quite a few builders do use those micro harmonic pipes though. 1' stops are rare in the romantic period, though Cavaille Coll seems like he liked them. He used a bit shorter compass than the modern 61 (only 54 I think). I believe some English Romantic builders also put them on their larger organs.

[johnroper100]

The Italian organs do indeed have break backs, but, I would say that as far as I know, other than those Italian examples, I don’t believe it is a common occurrence elsewhere in the world.

While I can’t speak about the other European organs without further research, it is incorrect to say that the Immanuel Presbyterian and Concordia University organs have break backs due to pipe construction. If one looks at their actual specifications, you’ll see that this break back was done in the relay due to unification. For example, in the Concordia University Organ, the 1 and 1/3 stops are unified from ranks that do not have enough pipes to play those pitches for the entire length of the keyboard. These are so called ‘fake’ stops because they are unified rather than constructed and tuned to those pitches. (Fun fact for a different conversation: unified mutations can never be perfectly in tune at least in equal temperament)

In the case of the Immanuel Presbyterian organ, the 1 1/3 and 1 3/5 stops do not exist on the actual instruments and were only added for the hauptwerk stoplist. This is an example of why it isn’t good to use a program like hauptwerk to do research for these types of questions. Many hauptwerk sample sets have modified specifications and keyboard compasses. Additionally, there are cases where a sample set may not have samples for certain pipes and the creator of that set has repitched things.

[Larason2]

That may be true about the organs you mentioned, but what about the other ones? It's true Hauptwerk sometimes has added pitches and breakbacks where they otherwise don't exist on the real organ, but there really isn't any other way to ascertain this kind of information from stop lists alone (since, as I mentioned, stoplists routinely omit this information), unless you have access to the real organ. There are also a lot of other Hauptwerk organs available that I don't have, which may well continue to prove my point. So I stand by my claim, I think the information I found is evidence enough that such breakbacks do exist, even in modern organs, and I think the fact that those harmonic pipes sound so bad in the top octave supports my claim as to why an organ builder would want to do this.

[johnroper100]

Examples of ranks that break back is not necessarily the issue we’re are debating. As I stated previously, this comes down to historical style. Italian organs do historically have examples of ranks that break back while I’d say the majority of American or British organs do not.

The debate stems from the original statements that “The shortest pipe that will reliably produce a tone is about one inch long” and that “In most schools, the highest rank that won't have to break back is a 2' rank, anything higher does.” both of which I feel to be inaccurate.

A rank doesn’t have to break back as you say, it instead comes down to a voicing choice by the builder. Along with that, it is definitely possible to adequately voice pipes smaller than 1in and I would direct you to any number of mixture or mutation ranks as proof. I wouldn’t underestimate the capability of any of the organ voicers working around the world and I don’t think it is accurate to judge the harmonics or voicing of a pipe based on a recording or sample of it being played in hauptwerk or other similar software, especially because it is very difficult to adequately reproduce the speech characteristics of a pipe in any electric organ (even with a recorded sample, and especially the attack).

[Larason2]

Well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree at this point. You have your view and I have mine, and I don't think there is much more to say!

[johnroper100]

For anyone interested in why there are many Italian examples that have breakback, the answer is twofold. A small part of it is the actual construction as spoken about in previous posts, but the other part is that those Italian organs have decompose mixtures rather than dedicated mixture stops. A decompose mixture is one who’s ranks are split into different stops. Sometimes those ranks can be straight, but in the Italian examples they have break back.

Sonus Paradisi actually provides a great list of additional reading materials about this subject:

• Oscar Mischiati (ed.), GLI ANTEGNATI: Studi e documenti su una stirpe di organari bresciani del Rinascimento. Bologna, 1995.
• Calvert Johnson, Historical Organ Techniques and Repertoire: ITALY 1550-1650. Colfax: LWE, 2002.
• Ferdinand Klinda, Organ v kultúre dvoch tisícročí. Bratislava: HC, 2000.
• Barbara Owen, The registration of Baroque Organ Music. Bloomington and Indianapolis: Indiana University Press, 1997.
• The French-British TV document by Gilles Cantagrel, Une histoire de l'Orgue. 1. part, 1990.

[MarkS]

On a 1982 Casavant the 1 1/3' Larigot and 1 3/5' Tierce have 61 pipes, but the top notes sound an octave lower. Oddly enough, they drop down an octave on what would be the highest C on a two foot voice, which is one pipe early.

To answer your question, these two voices do not repeat notes or drop out. Since these voices are on a "straight" windchest, the only alternative would be to drop out. If they were on unit chests, it would be easy to drop down to the pipes an octave below.

[myorgan]

From reading this thread, I would surmise it would be a good guess that:

1. Certain geographical regions/genres of pipe organ building are straight, whereas others break back.
2. The choice of whether to break back a high pitch varies between builders.

Safe statements? I don't think we'll ever find an absolute answer to the OP's question. Personally, I've often wondered how much difference one can actually discern between various ranks at those pitches anyway. Now, let's talk about splitting hairs!😉

Michael

[Mattia]

Let's also consider that a straight 1' rank would produce, at its highest note, a frequency around 16kHz, two octaves above highest note on a piano and pretty inaudible for most adults. That would't add much to the richness of a mixture sound, and played alone it would sound like an annoying mosquito for those who are young enough to hear it...

Here in Italy, as johnroper said, mixtures were built as separate stops until the end of 19th century*, so it's quite easy to identify break backs; when you have a single stop to engage a 4 rank (or more) mixture, the break back is barely noticed. But I never found an organ who hasn't break back (in Italian it's called "Ritornello") for ranks 2' or above. Moreover, highest ones usually break back twice or even three times (e.g. a 29th rank - three octaves and a fifth above 8' Diapason - can have three "foldbacks", with the same octave repeated at G2, G3 and G4)!

I hope you'd find this information useful or at least a little interesting, that's what I can say based on my personal experience here in my country but I'm open to different thoughts... after all, pipe organs are like snowflakes: there are not two identical in the world, and in other countries the golden rule might be completely different...

Mattia

*After the so called "Cecilian reform", around year 1890, italian builders began to use single-stop mixture ranks, but the separate ranks arrangement was never completely abandoned and can be found here and there in modern italian organs, too.

[snacks]

yes, this is all very interesting stuff - and "it depends on the organ" is a perfectly acceptable answer, haha. I also figured that the highest ranks would have to break back or stop given, again, how high the frequencies involved would be. I was thinking about this because to me, the sound of the Hammond 1' drawbar is distinctive, and when an organ doesn't have foldback (a spinet) or has a different wiring (earliest ones repeated two octaves instead of the highest one octave) it changes the sound greatly from what I expect.

[davidecasteel]

I thought the Sesquialtera was typically the only Mixture that did not break back. It's not high pitched and doesn't need to.

David

[Mattia]

I thought the Sesquialtera was typically the only Mixture that did not break back. It's not high pitched and doesn't need to.

I agree, as far as I know break backs usually start to show up from XIX (1-1/3") mutations: since Sesquialtera 's highest rank is a XVII (1-3/5") it doesn't need to break back.

Mattia

[MarkS]

It certainly does depend upon the builder.

1982 Casavant Recit Sesquialtera II and Grand Orgue Cornet III both break back in the top octave and earlier than necessary.

[johnroper100]

What op. # and is it real or hauptwerk?

[MarkS]

Op. 3544 of 87 ranks: https://pipeorgandatabase.org/organ/22362

It is real.