Washington National Cathedral organ set for renovation 2024 to 2028

[jbird604]

It seems that the grand cathedral organ will finally get renovated. A $14 million dollar project is set to begin in January 2024, completion scheduled for 2028. Almost all the funding is already in place though donations are still being accepted.

Here are the particulars:
https://cathedral.org/about/news-med...infrastructure.

At the recital this past Sunday afternoon, it was said that a Walker digital organ will serve in the interim. This will certainly be an interesting project to follow in the next few years.

[jbird604]

Update from yesterday. Tim Sheehan, cathedral organist, spoke briefly during a program break in the afternoon organ recital about the upcoming project. Yesterday's recital was apparently the last to be played on the organ before dismantling begins. But he said something about the scaffolding being placed in the choir area after Christmas. So I'm not clear on the schedule over the next few weeks.

Tim also pointed out that the Walker console has arrived and can be seen in the north transept. He said that the installation is well underway, and that the Walker will be ready to go as soon as the pipe organ is disabled, presumably after Christmas.

He had high praise for the Walker. He is of course greatly involved with the installation and voicing ongoing, and said that it already sounds wonderful, though he added that it isn't quite ready for the public to hear.

This gives me hope that this will be a fine example of Walker's work and fully up to the task of filling that enormous church with lovely music. Sure hope to hear it myself soon. A couple of forumites who live nearby have been in touch regarding a possible exploratory visit, which sounds like great fun to me!

[jbird604]

I couldn't help myself. Once I'd heard that the Walker console was on display in the north transept, I was itching for a view. So this morning I rearranged the schedule a bit and took my wife on a foray into DC. It was a perfect day for a drive. DC is still ablaze with fall colors, and the sun was shining just right. A little nippy out, but we were fine in our light jackets.

Here are the admittedly poor pics I took. Not much lighting where it sits now, and the flash on my phone is inadequate. But you can get an idea of what it is.

I have to wonder if the intent was to duplicate the pipe organ console (and spec) quite closely. It does look quite like the current pipe console, and a quick perusal of the knobs reveals a striking similarity.

The Walker does look to have more couplers though, two riws of them instead of the one. Bur the overall impression is of a very similar layout.

The question remains -- will it have enough amps and speakers and discrete audio channels to do a good job of filling the church with organ sound? There are to be 172 ranks of pipes when the pipe organ is reinstalled in 2028. Wouldn't it be nice if the Walker is going to have about that many audio channels and speakers?

[michaelhoddy]

They don't usually mess around, and they have significant experience in matching digital audio up with pipework so that they speak as seamlessly as possible together, so they know what it takes per stop and acoustical volumes to create that effect. They also did the temporary digital instrument in St. John The Divine here in NYC, so they do have good background working in cavernous spaces.

[jbird604]

Yes they do. Undoubtedly the best digital stops, as well as the single best-sounding digital organ I've ever heard have been by Walker. I guess the rather disappointing temporary setup at York Minster, done by another company using a stock model, and undersized to boot, had me worried about what might happen here. But I am very optimistic that Walker will represent themselves very well on this project.

[circa1949]

Glad I stumbled upon this thread!

I guess the rather disappointing temporary setup at York Minster

I'm a little confused; are you referring to temporary cathedral organs generally? If so what stock model are you referring to?
Aaahhhhh no worries. Google tells me it was a Viscount. Although the National Cathedral complains about their financial circumstances, at the end of the day they probably have a longer list in the rolodex of rich donors willing to cough up for > 300K temporary organs, which is the very minimum this had to cost, vs York Minster.

I can't wait to hear it! The divisions and stoplist seems, generally, very inspired by the 'original'. Such as having a 64' pedal reed.

[circa1949]

"I have to wonder if the intent was to duplicate the pipe organ console (and spec) quite closely."

Apparently it is, although that is from an unconfirmed source for now. The plan is they will retain the digital 'copy' of the new pipe organ, for practice and rehearsal. Registration memory files will be transferrable between them. Bloody brilliant.
But even without my unconfirmed source, from reviewing the specs in these pics of the Walker, it's clear they match up to the new organ. Which leads to an elephant in the room type question: have they been sampling the pipe work that will be retained? in situ? Imagine how much people would pay for that VPO sample set! I'm sure it will not be leaving the confines of Walker's workshop though. If some of the pipe ranks haven't been constructed yet, and of course some of them haven't...they can always update the samples later.

[mfrey65]

I’m wondering if the console they have for the Walker instrument will stay and become the “nave console”. It is beautifully built, and does look very similar to the Skinner console that they have now. I feel like a lot of the ranks that are on the new Walker console won’t actually be working until the pipes return. From the very little time I spent looking at the console a few weeks ago, it looks like a duplicate of the ranks for the “new organ” that is getting ready to be refurbished/ built. I have about 1000 questions I’d love to ask Tom about the project like is the Walker instrument tuned to 437hz or around about. I will say, the old Skinner, or Aeolian- Skinner or Whiteford or whoever else had their hands in the organ over the years, was very fun to play.

It will be a long 5 years of waiting for the new organ to be heard again. I feel very confident that Tom Sheehan was the one that has pushed hard to get the project moving, along with very generous donors. I would expect us all to be very pleased with the final product once it returns.

[circa1949]

I’m wondering if the console they have for the Walker instrument will stay and become the “nave console”.

Not according to what I read. The Walker will be in a rehearsal/practice space, permanently. So, for example, guest organists can practice on an exact replica of the real McCoy.

There will be 2 identical consoles for the pipe organ, made by whomever Foley Baker subs that out to. FWIW I read somewhere else of another recent renovation Foley Baker did, of a very large organ, but not quite this large. It was something like 2.5 million, not 14 million! So the National Cathedral could have 4 identical consoles with 24k gold plated trim if they wanted. In all seriousness though, glad they are not messing around. And VERY glad this is not an entire re-conceptualization of the instrument as they were planning in the mid 2000s. In spite of needing improvements, the instrument is magical and iconic in that space. It would have been a travesty to ignore that.

I feel like a lot of the ranks that are on the new Walker console won’t actually be working until the pipes return.

Not sure what you mean by this. The Walker is surely, now, a complete 'replica' of the to-be-built new National Cathedral organ. Walker either sampled some of the ranks that are being kept, or will sample them, or did a close substitution. Or course they had to do a substitution for the to-be-built ranks.

I have a whole theory, btw, about the real meaning of the reduced pipe count. But don't feel like going into it now. I will just bump this thread in 10 years if I'm correct. 🤣

[circa1949]

final comment for now - I do wonder as a practical matter, if they intend to leave the facade pipes in place. I can only assume they will - it would look pretty forlorn without them. But we'll find out.

[jbird604]

Oh yes. I do hope the facade pipes will be left in place. Surely they can do without those in the refurbishing project. $40 million ought to buy a lot of bling. They removed everything at York Minster of course, and it looked very sad the whole time the pipes were gone.

Tom mentioned in his remarks midway through the Christmas Day recital that the Walker is fully set up, speakers in place, and ready to play this coming Sunday (Dec 31), so we won't have to wait long now. I don't plan to be present for the service, but will certainly watch the youtube later, and hope to attend a service very soon.

[nullogik]

Here is a link to the Christmas Day organ recital which was the final performance held on the pipe organ:

The Walker digital organ will be used for services starting this Sunday.

[myorgan]

What was left of the organ appeared to do well. I noted he was using a choral version of the Hallelujah Chorus with piano accompaniment (I presume). It was nice to see the audience remembered the tradition of standing for the piece.

Michael

[mfrey65]

He definitely did a fabulous job on the Hallelujah Chorus! I imagine he had to do some rearranging of the organ part since the organ scholar was already gone well before Christmas! She was initially on the recital program but then wasn’t there anymore. They typically do the Hallelujah Chorus as a duet from what I remember from years past.

[myorgan]

It works as a solo, though. I would imagine that in some places he needed to read the open score choral parts and assimilate them into the piano accompaniment, but that's something, for which organists train. Personally, I'm probably too rusty to do it, but he certainly was able to pull it off!

Michael

[nullogik]

Has Rebecca (organ scholar) left the Cathedral? She seems to be no longer mentioned on any of the web pages.

[Jeffrey Pau]

https://cathedral.org/blog/everythin...thedral-organ/

I was looking over the new organ's stop list and noted how the 64’ Double Trombone in the pedal division mentions it has an extension down the A. Does this mean it has a resultant setup for the G# on down to the low C? Or does it just not continue down past the A? Or does it just come back up the octave as the 32' Contra Trombone?

Jeffrey

[circa1949]

That was unclear to me as well.
I do know that the original (mid-century revised) organ's "Bombarde Basse 64" was 'electronic', whatever that means. More recent stoplists omit it.
EDIT: Here is a thread to clarify https://organforum.com/forums/forum/...-stop-question
It was pipes down to A, then electronic or resultant for the rest.

[jbird604]

Close Encounter of the Third Kind -- we listened to the Sunday morning (Dec 31) service via livestream in its entirety. And the organ got a real workout. There was no attempt (nor need, I suspect) to ease into using the Walker in place of the pipes, no need to give the people time to get used to hearing the Walker instead of the pipe organ. Tom Sheehan presided from the Walker bench like a prince. If you didn't know about the swap, you probably heard nothing different, except perhaps that the organ was perfectly in tune and everything was working flawlessly for the first time in decades.

He began with an incredibly lovely piece that showcased the shimmering celestes. He led powerful hymns for the entrance and the exit. Played beautiful music behind the small choral ensemble and even played along once or twice with the "praise band" that supported the couple of gospel numbers. It seemed that the organ was fully up to every task.

That's my perception of it from my livestream auditioning. I have often experienced their livestream in the past, when the pipes were playing, and honestly I don't think I would have noticed the change, except as noted, for the perfect tuning and some lovely sounds that I hadn't heard before in there.

I hope to get over there very soon for a Sunday morning service. And then probably can say more about how it "feels" versus the pipes, which of course were capable of shaking the room and producing the visceral response one expects from a fine pipe organ properly fitted to its room. If the 32' pedal flue stops can be felt inside my chest, and if the mixtures float through the air like a silvery mist, I'll probably be satisfied.

Organ encounter numbering system:
First kind -- reading about an organ, perusing the stop list
Second kind -- hearing it on a lo-fi audio recording or a "demo" recording
Third kind -- hearing the organ over a high quality livestream or youtube recording in actual use in a service or program
Fourth kind -- hearing it in person
Fifth kind -- getting to play it!

[myorgan]

Organ encounter numbering system:
First kind -- reading about an organ, perusing the stop list
Second kind -- hearing it on a lo-fi audio recording or a "demo" recording
Third kind -- hearing the organ over a high quality livestream or youtube recording in actual use in a service or program
Fourth kind -- hearing it in person
Fifth kind -- getting to play it!

I love this grading method, John! Unfortunately with most notable organs, I've only encountered the "Third kind."😢

He began with an incredibly lovely piece that showcased the shimmering celestes.

I'm guessing he had you right there–he found your weakness!😉

I look forward to your continued reviews, now that you're in the area.

Michael

[circa1949]

Michael, I hope you can get to DC someday to hear either the Walker or the replacement in a few years.
What is the best pipe organ you've heard in person, if you don't mind sharing that?

[myorgan]

The best I've played is the Hook & Hastings (1906) at the Second Congregational Church in Brewer, ME. The best I've heard would be tied between a concert by Gillian Weir on the Cassavant Frérès at the First Baptist Church in Greenville, SC, and the Klaïs in the Altenberg Cathedral in Germany.

Michael

[Jeffrey Pau]

Organ encounter numbering system:
First kind -- reading about an organ, perusing the stop list
Second kind -- hearing it on a lo-fi audio recording or a "demo" recording
Third kind -- hearing the organ over a high quality livestream or youtube recording in actual use in a service or program
Fourth kind -- hearing it in person
Fifth kind -- getting to play it!

I had the privilege of hearing the Hazel Wright Organ at Christ Cathedral in Southern California a couple months ago and that was an extremely impressive 4th kind of organ encounter.

Jeffrey

[circa1949]

I'm close to just biting the bullet, finding out when they are having a concert, and booking a flight out there. Even though I hate the hassles of flying. I suspect it will be the best sounding organ I've heard in person. Currently, that is National Cathedral. Wanamaker is huge and capable of creating amazing sounds, but there's something about the acoustics of the space that is just "off" to me and always diminishes the experience. For example, the famous Aeolian-Skinner strings and celestes that John praised have a genuine, ethereal shimmering especially when sitting in the choir of National Cathedral. A truly unique sound only the organ can make. The massive string division of the Wanamaker ends up getting 'over blended' and making a sound that is actually closer to the string section of an orchestra, yet not as interesting. Conversely, Longwood's famous organ is fascinating to experience because it's much more "intimate" than most organs of that size, but I think Dupont should have doubled the ceiling height of his organ room...it just doesn't develop enough reverberation to create a fully unified organ sound in my opinion.
Really need to go hear the famous organs of NYC like St. Thomas 5th Ave. & St. John the Divine...just haven't gotten around to it. That popular video of the St. JtD en chamade is the most impressive sounding recorded en chamade I've ever heard...only 'of the 3rd kind' for me, I didn't to hear the organ when I visited. Totally OT, but, wow, the physical setting/habitus of St. John the Divine vs. National Cathedral could not be more different. The latter sits atop a hill surrounded by a verdant, park-like close and is visible from many places around DC, VA, and MD. I was once lucky to have an office in downtown DC with a view of it, poking up well above the surrounding buildings. The former is hemmed in very tight by huge buildings. (and even more hemmed in since they sold the last bit of land attached to it for a 12 story or so luxury apartment building) Now, in fairness, that situation is closer (no pun intended!) to the authentic cathedrals of European cities, some of which I have visited. But it made for a depressing first visit to St. John the Divine about 20 years ago. It is huge which kind of felt like the point of the architecture.

[Jeffrey Pau]

The concert I attended was this one:
https://www.christcathedralmusic.org...2324/regerfest

Music by Max Reger which was just as grand as the organ itself!

Here's a list of their upcoming concerts:
https://www.christcathedralmusic.org/concerts2324

I know some of my family and I were interested in them, though it's just a 20-30 minute drive from where we live so it's a little easier to consider!

Jeffrey

[mfrey65]

I had the opportunity to experience all “5 kinds”, and actually quite a few times. I live fairly close to DC and try to get to the cathedral every other month. My church job prevents me from going more frequently. I attended last years “Cathedral Day” afternoon recital with Tom Sheehan playing the recital. They tried to get us to sit in the nave but there were some of us that insisted on sitting in the Great Choir, which was definitely the better option! The organ was operating at only 60% at the time, was the loudest I’ve ever heard it. It’s a feeling that is pretty much indescribable if you haven’t experienced that instrument. It pretty much vibrates your organs inside of the body!

The new Walker…I went to Evensong Sunday afternoon. I wasn’t sure what to expect with the new set up of where the console is and where the choir now sits, which is where they used to before the COVID days. Obviously, Evensong is a quieter service and I didn’t get to experience the full effect of the Walker. It felt a little weak to me, but again, I’m sure he was only using a very small portion of the organ. The times that he did get a good, loud crescendo in, it sounded good. It did not shake my organs though, and I’m not sure if I ever would want to experience that feeling with an electronic organ anyways.

I’m sure most people would never be able to tell an electronic organ from a pipe organ, even with a little musical background. For us that are very familiar with organs, you can tell the difference, and again, that’s probably a good thing. Walker definitely builds an outstanding instrument, but it’s not the real deal. That’s just my two cents!

Matthew

** Just to clarify, I’ve only played the original instrument, not the Walker.

[jbird604]

Thanks for that Fourth Kind update, Matthew. That makes me even more eager to hear it in person.

As to having an electronic organ shake your insides, I have definitely experienced that several times. But only when the builder cut no corners with the audio, particularly in the pedal department.

Rodgers seemed to have the best bass speakers, starting with the incredible P1, that monster box with a 30" driver. Later on, I heard several fine installations using their P32 cabinet that had two rubber surround 15" drivers in a ported cabinet of about 18 cubic feet. Either one could produce chest-pounding output down into the infrasonic range.

I always think back to the organ speaker system I built for the church where I was playing 25 years ago. I used 8 (yes, EIGHT) 18" woofers (yes, EIGHTEEN INCHERS), driven by close to 2000 watts RMS power. That organ was without peer. But I never built another even remotely like it before or since. And no commercial builders go to that length to produce real bass.

But Walker is known for having some excellent subwoofer designs, and if they used enough of them for this project there should be some satisfying bass.

[circa1949]

I used 8 (yes, EIGHT) 18" woofers (yes, EIGHTEEN INCHERS), driven by close to 2000 watts RMS power. That organ was without peer. But I never built another even remotely like it before or since. And no commercial builders go to that length to produce real bass.

John that must have been spectacular. What was the brand/type of organ?
One of the things I plan to play with over the next few months is moving my subwoofers around to various locations in the room to see which positioning is optimal. Something I should have taken the time to do over 15 years ago when I was lucky to get a top of the line sub for a song. (no pun intended!)

[jbird604]

Long story, circa. This was a smallish Baptist church that suddenly got bigger. At first I had an old Baldwin organ playing through that speaker system. Later on I got the church a Rodgers 890 analog. Then an Allen ADC 4000 became available and we used it briefly before we got a nice Allen Renaissance R281 donated.

[jbird604]

Organ Encounter of the Fourth Kind. My wife and I decided on a whim today to go to Evensong at the Cathedral. Turned out to be a very good time to go, as it was a special Evensong service, honoring Episcopal schools in the mid-Atlantic region. Eight or ten schools were represented by both students and faculty in the huge combined choir that did most of the singing for the service, and it was one of the most awesome choirs I've ever heard, at least in power and range Not only was the choir huge, there was a very large attendance, the pews filled with parents and siblings and other family members of the choristers, as well as the usual assortment of regular church-goers and tourist-types like us. We got there about 15 minutes before service time and were extremely fortunate to score two seats, aisle seats no less, only about halfway back from the front where the choir sat. A really nice location for hearing the music.

But of course I was there to hear the organ. Organist Tom Sheehan did not disappoint. He played a rather impressive prelude, accompanied the choir on several numbers, played the fire out of the organ for the two rousing hymns, played a super-duper trumpet piece for a recessional, as well as a lot of nice service music along the way.

So yes, I've heard it now, and I'm satisfied that this Walker can indeed do what it needs to do, and does it well. There seemed to be plenty of power or at least sheer volume when called for. And plenty of bass, at least plenty to balance the manual voices when the organ was playing alone or when accompanying the choir. On full-throated congregational singing, I don't think I could "feel" the bass the way we all like to when the biggest pedal stops are drawn. But it always seemed like a well-balanced tone, from low to high.

If I have any criticism, it would only be that SOMETIMES the organ sounded a little bit two-dimensional. From our seats, fairly close to being centered in the nave, I expected to be immersed in the organ sound. But at times, on certain registrations, I had the sense that the sound was a little too confined to the front of the church. That didn't always seem the case though. Sometimes I was nearly startled at the way the sound seemed to come from everywhere, all around me, as the tones both high and low rolled around the church, reflecting off the ceiling and other hard surfaces.

Bottom line -- it was really good, and I only felt like offering the small criticism above because I was so pleased with most of what the organ did I had to feel just a tad disappointed when it failed to wow me.

Would I (or anyone else not intimately familiar with the real organ) even have noticed that the pipe organ was gone? Probably not. Walker certainly knows how to create organ tones that sound absolutely real. It surely sounded better than 90% of all the pipe organs I've ever heard, and had I not known it was a digital I wouldn't have had any reason to suspect.

TBH, this may not be the most impressive Walker I've ever heard. Back in Arkansas we used to occasionally service a very large all-digital Walker in an RC church near my home. That one for sure sounded like real pipes. And better than almost any pipe organ I ever heard in Arkansas. The difference may be that the Arkansas Walker was an actual permanent installation, with speakers perhaps placed more optimally, and maybe even larger speakers were used for the pedals. And that Arkansas church was only a fraction of the size of the Cathedral, so it didn't take just a ton of audio power to make it shake the church.

So go and hear the Cathedral organ if you can. It really is a testimony to just how good digital organs can be, given a genuine commitment to building a good organ, and when price is not a constraint.

[nullogik]

I wonder if they have changed the microphone placement for the webcasts. It sounds almost at times like they are taking a line out direct from the organ as it sounds quite dry, thin and choppy with little (of the expected massive) reverb. Then at other times it sounds how you'd expect with lots of rolling reverb. They must be alternating between audio sources throughout the stream.

[jbird604]

I have heard that they are still experimenting with speaker placement and they have changed microphone placement several times in attempting to pick up a good organ mix. So maybe it will become consistent soon.

Believe me, the reverb in that place is HUGE. More than ideal, IMHO. But I did feel that both the organ solo sound and the congregational singing were more cohesive yesterday than I had experienced there in the past. Perhaps the Walker already does a better job in some respects than that widely scattered pipe organ was doing.

[circa1949]

Great to have a first official review by a member of the forum. I can't wait to hear it!
I wonder if the placement of speakers is currently less than optimal as they continue to remove (presumably!?) the pipe organ? And hopefully, in a few months they may have the chance to improve it?

Believe me, the reverb in that place is HUGE. More than ideal, IMHO.

Yeah I think this is one reason the pipe organ always sounded better if you were sitting in the choir. You got more of the 'direct signal', so to speak. The worst organ for being marred by reverb, IMHO, is the Wanamaker, but I digress! In that case it's not so much being too long, it's being too 'busy'.

[jbird604]

Back at the cathedral today, just looking around. I noticed that only two wires Exit the console. AC power cord and presumably a MIDI cable or coax running to the generator racks, wherever they are. And got close enough to photograph the tag on the front that identifies the voices as Aeolian-Skinner.

[circa1949]

I hope that hole isn't big enough for a mouse!

I haven't checked the website recently, is there any talk of having a dedication concert for the Walker? Maybe not the 'optics' they want...who knows.

[AllenAnalog]

I'm thinking that is a fiber optic cable in the fuzzy jacket. Most of the latest pipe organ control systems use fiber instead of Ethernet and I don't think any but the smallest systems use MIDI because of its speed and limitations.

[circa1949]

Either way I like that Walker found something so classy looking, and not 'dayglo orange PVC jacketed'! There's a very old (now) video on Allen's Youtube channel about the control system of a pipe hybrid they made. I believe it used optical fiber too.

[nullogik]

They've posted a couple of short progress videos:

There is also a rather interesting behind the scenes video presumably before the dismantling started:

[circa1949]

Fascinating. Based on the videos and pictures on the website, I'm assuming there is going to be (or I should say, there is) a temporary floor above the choir, for the next 4 years. What I'm a little mystified by is the apparent lack of supports towards the end of the scrim video. Were they able to support it from horizontal steel girders inserted at the triforium level that are above the scrim? Perhaps I'm just missing vertical supports though.
I really have to get down there and hear the Walker. I wish they would schedule a dedication recital of some kind. EDIT: Oh I see they have a couple coming up...I'll have to go to one of those.

[jbird604]

That Easter Sunday recital you're planning to attend should give you a good idea of the Walker's capabilities. I look forward to hearing your reaction. Wish I could commit to being there myself, but we may be having a family event that day. As I may have already mentioned, I found the sound pretty satisfying, even if it didn't quite match the real pipe organ's charm.